>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>>> THE QUESTION IS, WHAT IS TRUMP TRYING TO FIX?

BECAUSE THINGS DIDN'T LOOK BROKEN.

>> TRUMP IS BACK DOWN A BIT, BUT THE TRADE WAR IS STILL ON.

I ASK IF THERE IS A PRECEDENT FOR THIS TERRIFYING TURBULENCE.

>>> THEN -- >> 6-YEAR-OLDS AND 60 GIRLS COME HERE AND EAT AND FIND SOMETHING TO TAKE AWAY.

>> DANGER CAME SMILING -- ARTIST REFLECTING ON 60 YEARS OF TRAILBLAZING WORK.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- THE RESURRECTION OF THE DIRE WOLF, WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO GEORGE CHURCH, COFOUNDER OF THE BIOTECH COMPANY BEHIND THAT SCIENCE BIG BREAKTHROUGH.

>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TOBRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION, FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IT IS AS IF THE WHOLE WORLD HAS BEEN IN A ROLLING EARTHQUAKE EVER SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP STARTED MASSIVE TARIFFS THAT UPENDED THE GLOBAL TRADE SYSTEM THIS WEEK, AND THEN SUDDENLY, HIT PAUSE, AS AMERICAN EQUITIES AND USUALLY SAFE BOND MARKETS TANKED AND THE STOCK MARKETS WORST START TO A PRESIDENTIAL TERM IN RECORDED HISTORY.

AMID DIRE WARNINGS OF A RECESSION, THE INCOMING GERMAN CHANCELLOR, FREDERICK MERTZ, HAS SUGGESTED THAT THIS IS A RESULT OF EUROPE'S DETERMINATION TO STAND ITS GROUND.

>> Translator: FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, IT IS A REACTION TO THE EUROPEANS' RESOLVED, AND THAT IS WHAT URSULA HAS SAID SEVERAL TIMES IN THE LAST FEW DAYS.

SHE ALSO SAID, PERSONALLY, WE ARE DETERMINED TO FIGHT BACK AND YOU CAN SEE FROM THIS EXAMPLE, UNITY HELPS.

IT IS BEST IF WE ALL DO 0% TARIFFS IN TRANSATLANTIC TRADE, THEN THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED.

>> BUT, TRUMP HAS DOUBLED DOWN AGAIN ON CHINA, HITTING IT EVEN HARDER, AND BEIJING IS FIGHTING BACK.

HAS THE WORLD SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE?

HERE TO DISCUSS THE DAMAGE AND WHAT IS TO COME, PETER FRANCA PENN, PROFESSOR OF UNIVERSITY AND COHOST OF "THE LEGACY PODCAST."

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

SO, HAVE WE SEEN THIS KIND OF -- IN THIS CASE -- SELF- INFLICTED ECONOMIC DAMAGE, IN HISTORY, IN RELEVANT HISTORY?

>> SURE, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE REVOLUTIONS, IN 1917 IN RUSSIA, THE WHOLE WORLD CAME TUMBLING DOWN.

PEOPLE HAD A VISION OF WHAT THEY THOUGHT IT SHOULD LOOK LIKE, AND THE ECONOMIC CHAOS THAT IS UNLEASHED, SUDDENLY, A WHOLE SERIES OF EVENTS THAT DESTABILIZED THE WHOLE WORLD, AS WELL AS RUSSIA.

SO, WE ARE LIVING THROUGH A REVOLUTION AND IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE MARKETS THIS WEEK.

SINCE TRUMP GOT INTO POWER, SHE IS CHAIR OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, HE HAS THREATENED TO INVADE CANADA, THREATENED TO INVADE GREENLAND, SO THIS TYPE OF VOLATILITY WE ARE SEEING IS NOT JUST ABOUT MARKETS.

>> HONESTLY, THAT FEELS SO YESTERDAY, BUT WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO IS THIS INCREDIBLE, RADICAL RESHAPING OF THE WHOLE U.S.-LED WORLD ORDER, ABROAD AND AT HOME.

SO, YOU THINK -- WHY DO YOU THINK TRUMP HAS HIT THE PAUSE BUTTON?

YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING UP A STORM ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THIS TRADE WAR.

>> I GUESS IT IS THREE FACTORS.

ONE, WHEN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BONDS START TO BECOME EXPENSIVE, THE WHOLE BASIS OF THE U.S. ECONOMY LOOKS LIKE IT IS UP TO PETER.

SECOND, HE HAS AROUND HIM, A BUNCH OF VERY EXPERIENCED, VERY SUCCESSFUL, PARTICULARLY IN THE TECH SECTOR, WHOSE SHARE PRICES WENT THROUGH THE FLOOR.

COMPANIES LIKE APPLE LOST ALMOST $1 TRILLION IN THE SPACE OF A FEW DAYS.

AND THIRD, THE NOISE AROUND WHAT TRUMP HAS BEEN DOING WITH ALL OF ITS FORMER ALLIES, HAS STARTED TO CREATE OPPORTUNITIES FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO STEP INTO.

ONE OF THE THINGS I HEAR A LOT, WHEN I AM ANYWHERE IN ASIA, IS ABOUT ASIA BEING STABLE.

RIGHT?

AND THAT IS A REAL DIFFERENCE TO THE WORLD THAT I GREW UP IN, WHERE THE STATE WAS NOT JUST THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD, BUT WAS PROVIDING A PROTECTIVE CUSHION TO RULES-BASED ORDERS AND THAT HAS REALLY CHANGED.

>> OKAY, SO, YOU HAVE JUST COME BACK FROM HONG KONG, AND YOU OBVIOUSLY PICKED UP A HUGE AMOUNT, THERE.

SO, TRUMP AND HIS CABINET PEOPLE, ARE SAYING THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE TALKING TO PRESIDENT XI, WHO HAS REFUSED TO BACK DOWN, SAYS THEY WILL, I THINK, STAND UP AND FIGHT THIS, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO SURRENDER.

AND THEY HAVE KEPT THEIR EXCESSIVE TARIFFS, RETALIATORY TARIFFS ON.

IT APPEARS, NOW, THAT TRUMP IS THINKING, HAVING DISSED HIS EUROPEAN ALLIES AND SLAPPED THEM WITH TARIFFS, IS NOW TRYING TO COME OUT OF THIS BY SAYING, PERHAPS WE CAN ALL BAND TOGETHER, ALL OF US, ALLIES, AGAINST CHINA.

IS THAT A VIABLE STRATEGY?

>> ONE OF THE BEST THINGS WE PRODUCE IN THIS COUNTRY IS BLACK MATTER, WITH THE COMING PLAN.

>> THAT IS A COMEDY SERIES?

>> IT IS A COMEDY SERIES AND BALDRIC IS THE MAN WHO CAN NEVER QUITE UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON, BUT ALWAYS HAS A COMING PLAN, FOR SOME OF THE PARTS.

IT FELT THAT IF THAT IS WHAT TRUMP WANTS TO DO, HE SHOULD HAVE GATHERED UP HIS ALLIES FIRST, TO ADDRESS WHAT IS THE BEST WAY TO ADDRESS WHAT ARE SOME SERIOUS IMBALANCES AND SOME SERIOUS ISSUES.

AND I DON'T THINK THOSE IMBALANCES OR SERIOUS ISSUES ARE MISUNDERSTOOD BY THE CHINESE SIDE, BUT IT IS HOW BEST TO DO IT.

THE PROBLEM IS WHEN YOU LOOK LIKE YOU ARE VOLATILE, YOU KEEP MOVING AND CHANGING YOUR OPINION ABOUT THINGS, THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO BUILD FOR THE FUTURE, THAT IS HARD FOR BUSINESS.

BUT, THAT IS VERY TYPICAL IF YOU ARE AN ALLY AND A FRIEND, TOO.

WHAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH EUROPE, WITH PRESSURE ON NATO, PEOPLE LIKE J.D.

VANCE CALLING EUROPEANS "PATHETIC."

>> CHINESE PEASANTS.

>> WRITE "CHINESE PEASANTS."

AND SEEMINGLY, LAYING DOWN ARMS IN RUSSIA TO UKRAINE.

SO, PEOPLE QUESTION, WHAT DOES THAT WORLD ORDER LOOK LIKE?

MAYBE TRUMP HAS A BRILLIANT PLAN ABOUT CHINA.

IT IS HARD TO SEE HOW YOU WOULD DO IT THIS WAY, BUT YOU LIVE AND LEARN.

I THINK ONE OF THE CHALLENGES IS, EVERYTHING MOVES SO QUICKLY AT THE MOMENT.

IT IS HARD TO GUESS WHAT COMES NEXT.

>> DO WE HAVE THE LUXURY -- CAN WE AFFORD OURSELVES THE LUXURY OF LIVING AND LEARNING?

BECAUSE ECONOMISTS ARE NOW SAYING THAT EVEN WITH A PAUSE BUTTON AND MAYBE A REORGANIZATION OF THIS ECONOMIC WAR, THAT WHAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED IS GOING TO CAUSE LASTING DAMAGE, IT IS GOING TO BE REALLY DIFFICULT TO REWIND THAT CLOCK, BECAUSE 10% ACROSS- THE-BOARD TARIFFS REMAIN, AND IT COULD STILL LIKELY LEAD TO A RECESSION.

AND IN FACT, AS WE SPEAK, THE MARKETS HAVING ZOOMED UP AFTER THE PAUSE, STARTED TO GO DOWN AGAIN, WHEN REALITY SET IN AGAIN.

>> MEMBERS CAN BE SHORT, SO I THINK IT IS ABOUT SUBSTANCE MORE THAN THE NOISE.

THAT IS THE FIRST ONE.

TRUMP TRIED TO TALK ABOUT REASSURING AND MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, AND BRINGING MANUFACTURING JOBS BACK.

IF HE WANTS THE MODEL OF A STATE THAT HAS DONE THAT WELL, THAT INDUSTRIALIZED IS AND PROTECTS ITSELF WITH HIGH-LEVEL TARIFFS, SHE SHOULD STUDY CHINESE TARIFFS, SO IT IS NOT A PARALLEL OF WHAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO, TO HAVE MAXIMUM INDEPENDENCE, TO INPUT IN OTHER PEOPLE'S SUPPLY CHAINS AND USE LEVERAGE.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT CHINA DOES QUITE WELL.

SO, WE ARE IN METERS AT THE MOMENT, WHERE ALL THE MODELS SHOULD BE, LEAVING THE FREE WORLD TALKING ABOUT FREE WORLD MARKETS.

IN FACT, PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF PRODUCING TARIFFS, TRADING FREELY IN BEIJING.

EVERYTHING SEEMS TO BE THE WRONG WAY AROUND.

IN A PLACE LIKE EUROPE, WE HAVE TO TRY TO WORK OUT, HOW DO WE BALANCE BETWEEN THEM?

WE HAVE SEEN THIS WEEK, EMERGENCY MEETINGS -- >> WITH THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION?

>> YES, THE CHINESE PREMIER, TRYING TO PROTECT EUROPE HAVING EXCESS WAYS TO PROTECT WITH BARRIERS GOING UP.

SO, THERE IS THAT INSTABILITY THAT TRUMP HAS BROUGHT INTO THE PICTURE, BUT THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN IT WILL MAKE IT EASIER TO DO A DEAL.

FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH, WHEN TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT FIRST TIME AROUND, CHINA'S BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH TRUMP WASN'T ABOUT TARIFFS OR TRADE AGREEMENTS, IT WAS THAT HE KEPT CHANGING HIS MIND.

>> WELL, THAT SEEMS TO BE THE CASE RIGHT NOW.

ALSO, I WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE A HISTORIAN AND TRUMP SEEMS TO BE GOING BACK A LOT TOO, YOU KNOW, BEYOND 100 YEARS AGO.

SO, I WANT TO PLAY THIS LITTLE BIT OF A SOUND BITE.

HE LOVES TARIFFS.

HE HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT TARIFFS FOREVER.

EVEN IN THE FACE OF, YOU KNOW, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL INTERVIEWS, AND STUFF LIKE THAT, AND THEY POINT OUT HOW, YOU KNOW, NEGATIVE IT IS FOR THE WORLD ECONOMY.

"NO, I LOVE THE, BEST WORD IN THE ENGLISH DICTIONARY."

AND THIS IS HIS REASON.

>> OUR COUNTRY WAS THE STRONGEST, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, FROM 1870, TO 1913.

YOU KNOW WHY?

IT WAS ALL TARIFF BASED.

WE HAD NO INCOME TAX.

THEN, IN 1913, SOME GENIUS CAME UP WITH THE IDEA OF, LET'S CHARGED THE PEOPLE OF OUR COUNTRY, NOT FOREIGN COUNTRIES THAT ARE RIPPING OFF OUR COUNTRY.

AND THE COUNTRY, RELATIVELY, WAS NEVER THAT KIND OF WELL.

>> SO, HE MEANDERED IN THE LAST BUT, THE OLD "WE" WAS ABOUT TO SET IN, BUT THE TWO POINTS THERE, ONE, THE WORLD HAS BEEN RIPPING US OFF SINCE THEN.

AND TWO, WE WERE NEVER STRONGER THAN BEFORE 1913, WHEN IT WAS ALL TARIFFS.

>> YEAH, THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

I AM SORT OF SCRATCHING MY HEAD, WHO IT IS THAT TRUMP HAS BEEN READING.

I MEAN, AT THAT TIME THAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT, THE BELGIAN EMPIRE CONTROLLED MOST OF WHAT IS NOW CONGO.

BRITAIN CONTROLLED ALMOST THE WHOLE GLOBE.

SO, THE IDEA THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS AT ITS STRONGEST -- THAT IS A TIME WHEN EUROPEANS ALL HAD EMPIRES AND CONTROLLED TRADE FLOWS.

IN FACT, WHEN EUROPE WENT TO WAR IN 1914, THAT IS WHAT I'M MADE AMERICA GREAT, BECAUSE SUDDENLY, YOUR BOT MATERIALS, PARTICULARLY WHEAT AND STEEL ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, PUMPED HUGE AMOUNTS OF CASH.

I'M NOT SURE WHERE HE GOT THAT FROM.

THE THING ABOUT "FOREIGNERS" IS AN INTERESTING ONE.

WHEN HE TALKED ABOUT THE INTRODUCTION OF TARIFFS, HE TALKED ABOUT RAPING, LOOTING, PILLAGING.

AND THAT IS WHAT EUROPEAN EMPIRES DID, THAT IS WHAT ALL EMPIRES HAVE DONE, AND IT IS HARD TO SEE WHAT TRUMP IS DOING THAT IS DIFFERENT, RIGHT?

HE HAS TRIED TO CHARGE BLOOD MONEY IN UKRAINE, OR TRY TO CHARGE FOR THE BENEFITS OF TRADING.

SO, IF YOU ARE BEING SPECIFIC ABOUT, LET'S SAY, CRITICAL MINERALS, OR RARE EARTH, OR THINGS THAT HAVE SPECIFIC SIGNIFICANCE FOR THE U.S., BUT PROBABLY IT IS IN THE AMERICAN CONSUMERS' BEST INTEREST TO HAVE SNEAKERS THAT ARE REASONABLY AND CHEAPLY PRICED, RATHER THAN MADE IN THE U.S.

SO, THE BLANKET IS THE PROBLEM, TRYING TO TREAT EVERYTHING THE SAME WAY, SHOWS EITHER THERE IS NOT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF SOPHISTICATION TO THE VIEW, OR IT IS TO SET THINGS UP FOR MORE DETAILED DISCUSSIONS.

BUT, AS WE LEARNED HERE IN BRITAIN, TRADE DISCUSSIONS TAKE A LONG TIME TO CONDUCT.

>> WELL, REMEMBER, IN FACT, BORIS JOHNSON TOLD TO GET A POST BREXIT TRADE DEAL -- >> UP AND READY.

>> AND BRITAIN STILL DOESN'T HAVE A TRADE DEAL, TRUMP WON, AND THEN BIDEN, AND THEN TRUMP TWO, STILL NOTHING.

>> THAT WILL EVOLVE HOURS, WEEKS, MONTHS, OF LAWYERS SITTING TOGETHER IN A ROOM WORKING OUT THE FINE DETAILS OF WHAT TYPES OF BEEF MIGHT BE ABLE TO BE SOLVED BUT, THE QUESTION, WHAT IS TRUMP TRYING TO FIX?

BECAUSE THINGS DIDN'T LOOK BROKEN IN GRANT PARK.

UNITED STATES HAS A HUGELY IMPORTANT ECONOMY, ALL WITH SOFT POWER.

YOU TRAVEL TO ANY CITY AROUND THE WORLD AND PEOPLE ARE LISTENING TO TAYLOR SWIFT AND THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO CHINESE POP SONGS.

I THINK THAT IDEA ABOUT THE U.S.

GIVING UP LEADERSHIP ROLES, IT IS QUITE UNCLEAR ABOUT WHY TRUMP HAS DECIDED TO DO THAT.

>> OKAY, SO, THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING AND I WONDER IF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY THOSE WHO VOTED FOR HIM, GET THIS, OR THEY CARE.

SO, IT IS NOT LIKE AMERICA WILL BE MAY BE THE STRONGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD.

BUT, THAT ITS RELATIVE POWER WILL DIMINISH, RIGHT?

PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT IT WILL BE, YOU KNOW, A BIT POORER, A BIT MORE ISOLATED, A BIT MORE ALONE, AND OVER THE HAIR ON ITS OWN, WHILE OTHERS ARE WAITING TO JUMP INTO THE VACUUM.

OTHERS, BEING CHINA AND WHOEVER ELSE -- BUT, MOSTLY CHINA, RIGHT?

DO YOU SEE -- BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOW WRITING THAT, YEAH, THERE MAY BE IS GOING TO BE A POST-AMERICAN WORLD, POST AMERICAN WORLD ORDER.

AND IT WOULD BE BETTER.

>> WELL, YEAH, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT "BETTER," BUT THAT IS CERTAINLY THE WORLD, AS IT LOOKS IN REALITY.

REALLY, FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH, ALTHOUGH THE U.S. IS A HUGELY IMPORTANT PART OF CHINA'S EXPORT ECONOMY, CHINA EXPORTS MORE TO COUNTRIES IN SOUTHEAST ASIA THAN IT DOES IN THE U.S.

RIGHT?

SO, THERE ARE ALSO SOME OTHER BALANCES THAT OTHER STATES ARE THINKING ABOUT HOW TO TIE UP THEIR CONNECTIONS.

IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, WE HAVE SEEN COMBINED NAVAL OPERATIONS BY RUSSIAN, IRANIAN, AND CHINESE SHIPS IN THE INDIAN OCEAN, AND DISCUSSIONS AROUND SATELLITE TECHNOLOGIES, AROUND DATA, AND AROUND HOW TO FIND WAYS TO COOPERATE EVEN AT A HIGHER LEVEL.

THAT MEANS PUTIN'S RUSSIA IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM XI JINPING'S CHINA, VERY DIFFERENT TO A RUN.

YOU FIND LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PUSHED INTO A ROOM TOGETHER TO FIND BETTER WAYS TO COOPERATE.

FOR EXAMPLE, AT THE MOMENT, THE GREATEST AND BIGGEST SUPPLIER OF OIL TO EUROPE IS INDIA, BECAUSE INDIA IS IMPORTING SO MUCH OIL FROM RUSSIA.

SO, THAT WORLD ORDER IS BEING FORGED DIFFERENTLY.

THE U.S. CAN TRY TO DERAIL IT, WHICH I GUESS IS WHAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO.

IF YOU WANT TO BUILD AN ALLIANCE, YOU CAN FIND WAYS TO TALK THROUGH AND RECALIBRATE.

AND MAYBE YOU WANT TO TRY TO FIND PEOPLE'S TRUST AND RESPECT, RATHER THAN LOOKING LIKE YOU ARE AN ARSONIST SETTING FIRE TO THE ECONOMY, AND TO GREENLAND, AND TO NEIGHBORS, AND SO ON.

>> IT IS INTERESTING, BECAUSE THIS WEEK HAS SOLIDIFIED FOLK, PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TRUMP ANYWAY AND HIS POLICIES, AND HE IS NOT PLAYING 3-D CHEST, THAT HE IS NOT A GREAT NEGOTIATOR, THAT -- THIS IS WHAT THEY THINK -- THAT IT IS CHAOS, THAT THIS IS A SLASH AND BURNED VIEW ABOUT CHANGING THE WORLD ORDER, WITHOUT HAVING A PLAN B IN PLACE, TO BUILD UP AND REPLACE WHAT THEY ARE BURNING.

AND SO, HE HAS HAD TO PUT THE BRAKES ON THIS VERY RADICAL ECONOMIC MOVES THAT HE HAS BEEN MAKING.

I MEAN, DO YOU THINK THAT IS TRUE?

I JUST WANT TO PLAY WHAT HIS SPOKESWOMAN HAS BEEN SAYING ABOUT ESSENTIALLY, HIS "GENIUS."

>> AMERICA DOES NOT NEED OTHER COUNTRIES AS MUCH AS OTHER COUNTRIES NEED US, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP KNOWS THIS.

HE IS GOING TO USE THE LEVERAGE OF OUR MARKETS AND OUR COUNTRY TO THE ADVANTAGE OF THE PEOPLE HE WAS SWORN IN TO REPRESENT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, COUNTRIES, LIKE CHINA, WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO RETALIATE AND TO DOUBLE DOWN ON THE MISTREATMENT OF AMERICAN WORKERS, ARE MAKING A MISTAKE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS A SPINE OF STEEL, AND HE WILL NOT BREAK, AND AMERICA WILL NOT BREAK UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP.

>> IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN, THAT COMMENT ABOUT THE "SPINE OF STEEL" WAS JUST BEFORE HE HIT THE PAUSE BUTTON IN RESPONSE TO THE MASS PANIC THAT WAS GOING ON, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

>> WE HAVE A U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE TESTIFYING IN FRONT OF CONGRESS, JUSTIFYING TARIFFS FOR TWO HOURS, WHEN THE TEXT DROPPED, THAT TRUMP HAD PUT A PAUSE ON THEM.

SO, YOU KNOW, THAT ENGAGEMENT ABOUT TRYING TO PRESENT TRUMP ABOUT TRYING TO PRESENT THE WORKERS OF AMERICA, EVERYONE THINGS THAT IS A GOOD IDEA, WE UNDERSTAND THERE IS A PURPOSE OF TRYING TO RECALIBRATE GLOBAL TRADE SUPPLIES.

>> IS IT POSSIBLE?

>> THERE ARE 4 BILLION PEOPLE IN ASIA.

SO, IF YOU ARE AN APPLE, YOU THINK, ABOUT THE 75% OF PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, OR, DO YOU PUT THE U.S. FIRST?

AND THOSE KINDS OF QUESTIONS ARE COMMERCIAL ONCE, BUT TRUMP IS INTRODUCING POLITICS INTO BUSINESS, NOW.

BUT, YOU KNOW, AT HIS INAUGURATION, HAVING ALL OF THE BIG TECH GUYS STANDING IN THE FRONT ROW, IN FRONT OF HIS CABINET, SENDING THE MESSAGE THAT BUSINESS INTERESTS COME FIRST.

I THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW, SOME OF THAT IS THE COLD REALITY OF WHAT TRUMP'S POLICIES HAVE DONE HAVE RECALIBRATED HIS OWN VISION, FOR THE TIME BEING.

>> EVEN PEOPLE LIKE BILL EICHMANN, WHO TALKED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITIES UNDER TRUMP IS NOW SAYING -- I'M PARAPHRASING -- BUT, HIS LATEST ON MONDAY, TUESDAY WAS, HOW COULD I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS COMING?

AND A LOT OF BUSINESS FEELS THAT THEY WERE OVEREAGER, AND THEY GOT IT WRONG, AND THEY ARE BEING HIT HARD BY REALITY.

>> SOMETIMES, IT IS GOOD TO BE A HISTORIAN.

YOU CAN LOOK BACKWARDS IN TIME, RATHER THAN MANAGING OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY AND TO TELL THEM WHY YOU GOT THINGS WRONG.

BUT, IF YOU THINK YOU CAN READ TRUMP'S CHARACTER, THAT IS PROBABLY A SOLITARY LESSON IN THERE.

AND I THINK IF I WAS RUNNING A BIG U.S. BUSINESS IN ANY SECTOR, PHARMACEUTICALS, THAT TRUMP THIS WEEK SAID HE WAS GOING TO SANCTION TO TECH COMPANIES.

DO YOU TAKE THE RISK OF INVESTING BILLIONS, TENS OF BILLIONS, BRINGING FACTORIES BACK TO THE U.S., WHERE HE MIGHT CHANGE HIS MIND AGAIN, OR DO A DEAL WITH CHINA, AND OTHERS, AND THEN THAT IS WHERE YOUR MARGINS, TOO?

SO, IT IS VERY HARD WHEN THE WINDS KEEP CHANGING THE DIRECTION THEY ARE FLOWING.

>> THERE IS -- WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HISTORICAL PRECEDENTS -- I AM SURE THAT THE U.S.

DOESN'T WANT TO BE LUMPED IN WITH LINEN, WHO WAS THE LAST ONE WHO CREATED THIS SELF COUP, AS I HEARD FROM THE CHINESE AGAINST THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT IN THEIR OWN SYSTEM.

BUT, I WAS RECENTLY SPEAKING WITH THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF COLUMBIA, WHO TOLD ME THAT, FOR MANY DECADES, LATIN AMERICA TRIED THIS VERY SAME THING.

IT WAS CALLED SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> LATIN AMERICA, FOR 30 YEARS, DID WHAT EXACTLY TRUMP ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY.

THAT IS WHY, BACK IN THE EARLY '90s, ALL OF LATIN AMERICA WAS VERY ENGAGED IN NEGOTIATING THE CREATION OF THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION, BECAUSE THE INSTITUTION POLICY WAS A FAILURE.

>> IMPORT OF SUBSTITUTION POLICY WAS TARIFFS, RIGHT?

PROTECTIONISM.

>> LAST YEAR, TRADE WITH CHINA PAST $500 BILLION.

MOST OF US IN THE WORLD THINK TRADE IS A GOOD THING, TRADE IS A GOOD THING FOR WOMEN AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS BECAUSE IT ALLOWS DISPOSABLE INCOME, ALLOWS YOU TO FEED YOUR FAMILY BETTER.

IF YOU SEE BARRIERS IN THE WAY, THINGS BECOME HARDER.

SO, CLEARLY THERE ARE WAYS YOU NEED TO PROTECT YOUR NATIONAL SECURITY APPARATUS, THAT IS, LOCATED IN WORLD OF NEW MATERIALS AND NEW TECHNOLOGIES, BUT THINGS LIKE WHERE YOU GET YOUR FRUIT FROM, WHERE YOU GET YOUR PENCILS FROM, YOU HAVE TO BALANCE HOW YOU PROTECT YOUR FARMERS, HOW YOU GET YOUR MANUFACTURING RIGHTS, AND IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS, IT IS ABOUT SITTING AROUND THE TABLE AND TRYING TO ADDRESS THOSE AS OPENLY AS POSSIBLE.

BUT, TO HAVE ANY FORM OF NEGOTIATION, YOU HAVE TO TRUST THE OTHER SIDE.

SO, THAT, I THINK, IS A REAL CHALLENGE ABOUT HOW TRUMP DOES BUSINESS.

THE USE OF THREATS.

AND THEN, SCROLLING BACK, YOU TEACH OTHER PEOPLE HOW YOU NEGOTIATE, AND JUST THIS WEEK, BY ANNOUNCING TARIFFS AND THEN PULLING BACK, IT SHOWS YOU HOW TRUMP THINGS, AND THAT IS QUITE A USEFUL THING, IF YOU ARE SITTING OPPOSITE TO HIM AT THE NEGOTIATION TABLE.

>> SO, HISTORICALLY -- AND WE HAVE ONLY A MINUTE LEFT -- WHERE IS THIS MEETING?

GREAT DEPRESSION, WAS JUST AFTER THE MUCH WARRANTED 1913 TARIFFS, AND THIS, AND THAT.

>> MY GUESS WOULD BE ONE OF TWO THINGS.

EITHER THIS BUILDS UP TO A WORLD OF HOT WAR, OF PEOPLE USING THAT LEVERAGE TO TRY TO GET COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE AND USING FORCE, WHICH WE ALL HOPE WE AVOID, BECAUSE WHAT IS AT STAKE IS ABSOLUTELY CATASTROPHIC.

OR, THAT A DEAL GETS DONE.

AND I THINK THOSE DEALS WILL NOT BE ON THE WIT OF MAN, BUT THEY DO TAKE TIME.

BUT, IT IS HARD TO GO TO THE DRAFTING TABLE FOR SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO DO.

FOR CHINA, AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, THE MESSAGES ABOUT STABILITY, COOPERATION, THE DOOR IS OPEN, WE ARE HERE TO TALK.

THAT IS WHAT THEY TRYING TO SAY TO TRUMP NOW, THE QUESTION IS IF TRUMP HAS A PRICE HE IS WILLING TO AGREE ON.

>> PETER FRANCIA, THANK YOU.

SUCH AN AMAZING, AMAZING PERSPECTIVE AND A LOT FOR US TO KEEP THINKING ABOUT.

>>> NOW, WE TURN TO AN ARTIST WHO HAS BEEN CHALLENGING CONVENTION FOR 50 YEARS.

SHE GOES SIMPLY AS LINDA, AND HIS BEST USE -- KNOWN FOR USING PHOTOMONTAGE, REMIXING IMAGES FROM POPULAR CULTURE TO TACKLE THINGS, FROM FEMINISM, TO CONSUMERISM.

"DANGER CAME SMILING" IS A NEW EXHIBITION SHOWCASING DECADES OF HER BROWN GROUNDBREAKING WORK, AND THIS WEEK, I ASKED HER ABOUT BEING AHEAD OF HER TIMES, WHEN I MET HER AT THE HAYWOOD GATHERING, HERE IN LONDON.

>> LINDA, WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU ARE 70-ISH.

AND THIS IS YOUR FIRST, FIRST RETROSPECTIVE, HERE IN THE UK.

YOU HAVE THEM IN EUROPE, PARIS, ET CETERA.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR YOU, TO BE AT THIS POINT, RIGHT NOW?

>> IS THE WORLD AROUND US BECOMES MORE AND MORE UNSETTLED, PERHAPS IF THIS SHOW WAS FIVE YEARS AGO, IT WOULD BE A DIFFERENT READING.

SO, I DO BELIEVE IN FATE, I BELIEVE WE COME TO YOU WHEN THE TIME AND CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT.

>> WHAT DO YOU IMAGINE THE REACTION MIGHT HAVE BEEN, FIVE YEARS AGO?

>> I THINK FIVE YEARS AGO, DEEP FAKING WASN'T HAPPENING.

WE DIDN'T HAVE -- SOCIAL MEDIA WAS POWERFUL, BUT IT WAS AN ACCELERATION IDEA.

SO, I THINK FIVE YEARS AGO, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN, AGAIN, A GOOD SHOW TO SEE, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT RIGHT NOW, RIGHT NOW, WHERE THE 16-YEAR- OLDS AND 60-YEAR-OLDS COME HERE AND THEY EACH FIND SOMETHING TO TAKE AWAY.

>> SO, BEHIND ME IS A VERY COLORFUL OUTLET PER TRADE, IT IS YOU AND A FRIEND AND YOU ARE COVERED IN SOME KIND OF COLORFUL GROUP.

WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

AND HOW DOES IT FIT INTO WHAT YOU HAVE JUST TALKED ABOUT?

>> ME AND A FRIEND COVERED IN CUSTARD, RICE PUDDING, YOGURT, FRUIT COLORINGS.

AT THE TIME, 10 YEARS AGO OR SO, THERE WAS SUDDENLY A CRAZE FOR SOMETHING CALLED SPLOSH.

IT IS A VERY, I WOULD THINK, ENGLISH SENSIBILITY ABOUT GOING INTO THE KITCHEN AND COVERING YOURSELF WITH THE CONTENTS OF THE FRIDGE OR THE CUPBOARD.

SO, THERE WERE MANY SCENES OF WOMEN, PREDOMINANTLY, COVERED HEAD TO TOE IN BAKED BEANS.

OR, COVERED HEAD TO TOE IN CUSTARD.

AND I LOOKED AT THAT IMAGES AND WAS THINKING, THIS IS LIKE A JACKSON OR SOMEBODY FROM THE EXPRESSIONIST, DOING IT LIVE UPON THE BODY.

SO, I WAS FASCINATED.

AT THE SAME TIME, MY DEAR, DEAR FATHER HAD NOT LONG PASSED AWAY.

IN THE LAST FEW DAYS OF HIS LIFE, I WAS HAVING TO SPOONFEED HIM, BECAUSE HE COULDN'T SWALLOW.

HE HAD HAD A STROKE.

AND HE HAS BEEN VERY, VERY CAREFUL NOT TO DROP ONE TINY DROP OF CUSTARD.

HE WANTS TO KEEP HIS DIGNITY.

>> IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY STORY, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE ART, AS WELL.

NOT JUST THE ARTIST, BUT YOU ARE THE ART.

>> YES.

>> I JUST WANT TO FLASH BACKWARDS.

>> YES.

>> YOU WERE THE FIRST TO BE SO DARING AS TO COVER YOUR BODY IN SLABS OF MEAT.

I MEAN, BEFORE -- WAY BEFORE -- LADY GAGA.

YOU DID IT IN THE '70s, RIGHT?

>> WELL, WHEN IT HAPPENED, THE SITE OF THAT PERFORMANCE WAS THE HACIENDA CLUB IN ROCHESTER.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TALK AND EXCITEMENT ABOUT THE CLUB OPENING, ABOUT ITS DESIGN, THE UNIQUE DESIGN.

BUT I WAS THINKING, "WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE STILL SELLING THESE CHEAP MEAT PRODUCTS, CHEAP BURGERS, ET CETERA."

MIDWEEK, HACIENDA, THE JUST KIND OF LOOP PORNOGRAPHY IN A VERY LAZY, BORING WAY, WHICH REALLY IRRITATED ME.

SO, ALL OF THIS WAS GOING ON IN MY HEAD, AND SO, IF I HAD THIS MEAT GODDESS, BUT IT WAS JUST A WAY -- AGAIN, USING YOUR NEW BODY TO GET A VERY POTENT MESSAGE ACROSS.

>> WHAT WAS THE MESSAGE?

>> SHOCK.

I THINK, AT FIRST, BECAUSE OF THE COLORS OF THE LIGHTS ON STAGE.

PEOPLE THOUGHT I WAS WEARING FLOWERS, PECULIAR FLOWERS, THEN WHEN THE SPOTLIGHT WENT ON, EVERYBODY WAS AGHAST, AND MOVED BACK A FEW FEET.

SO, TO ME, THAT WAS THAT EARLY SENSE OF SHOCK.

OH, YOU CAN USE SHOCK IN A VERY POTENT WAY.

>> I WAS THERE FOR ONE OF THE PREVIEWS, BUT, WE DON'T WANT TO BE ARTISTS, WE WANT TO BE CULTURAL WARRIORS.

>> IT IS VERY TRUE.

AT THE TIME, I THINK THAT IS BECAUSE BRITISH ART, ITSELF, FOR WE, YOUNG, WORKING-CLASS, AND AS CREATIVE'S THERE, WE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE THE VOCABULARY ADEQUATE TO DESCRIBE WHAT IT WAS THAT WE ASPIRE TO BE BECAUSE AS WORKING-CLASS CHILDREN, WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE COULD HOLD.

I WAS THE FIRST PERSON IN THE FAMILY TO DO THAT.

SO, THERE WAS A LOT OF GREAT EXPECTANCY.

BUT, AT THAT POINT, I FELT, NO.

THIS HAD TO DO WITH BEING A DESIGNER, DESIGNING MUSIC SLEEVES FOR ASPIRATIONS.

SO, IT FELT LIKE I DEFINITELY DID NOT WANT TO BE AN ARTIST.

>> AND THE IDEA OF CULTURAL WORRIED, BECAUSE AROUND THAT TIME, AS WELL, AS YOU SAY, THERE WAS MUSIC, THERE WAS SINGING.

YOU PARTNERED WITH THE UNIVERSAL PARTNER, I THINK THE LEADER OF BUZZ CAULK, THAT BAND.

AND YOU CREATED THE ALBUM COVER, WHICH IS THE ILLUSTRATION FOR THIS EXHIBITION.

I JUST LOVE IT, BECAUSE IT IS THE FEMALE BODY THAT YOU HAVE DECORATED.

BUT, AS YOU SAY, WITH A DOMESTIC COMPLIANCE IN FRONT OF HER FACE.

TALK TO ME ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE DONE THAT.

YOU HAVE USED THE CULTURE AROUND WOMEN AS PART OF YOUR ART.

>> IT IS ALMOST HOMEOPATHIC.

IN A WAY, I SUPPOSE, EVEN IN THOSE EARLY YEARS, LOOKING AT THE SCENES AROUND ME, LOOKING AT MEN'S MAGAZINES AND WOMEN'S MAGAZINES, AND THE EXPECTATIONS IN BOTH, SO I JUST REALLY SIMPLY FOUND THIS NAKED WOMAN, AND HER BODY IS ACTUALLY QUITE OFTEN GOD.

IT WASN'T A BODY TYPICAL OF THAT TIME.

IT FEELS VERY NOW, BECAUSE THE BODY IS VERY LEAN.

IT IS ORIOLE TO.

THE BODY WAS NOT TYPICAL OF 1976, SO THAT WAS INTERESTING.

VISCERALLY, I GOT SUCH A THRILL.

WHEN I GROW THAT TOGETHER, IT IS QUITE TINY.

YOU CAN SEE IT, HERE.

IS QUITE TINY.

ALMOST LIKE AN ICON, AS THE DECADES GO BY.

AND IT IS ONLY WHEN IT WENT OUT INTO POPULAR CULTURE, VIA THE SLEEVE, MY POSTERS, THIS EXTRAORDINARY FEEDBACK WAS COMING.

>> WAS A POSITIVE FEEDBACK?

OR, WAS IT NEGATIVE?

>> POSITIVE.

ONLY POSITIVE FEEDBACK.

>> PEOPLE DIDN'T WORRY THAT YOU WERE TRASHING TRAD WIVES?

>> NO, I THINK PEOPLE WERE INTRIGUED.

IT WAS JUST THIS ACT, GLUING THREE MOTIVES ONTO A PAGE, BUT I THINK IT WAS SO SIMPLE, VERY ELEGANT.

>> AND THAT ACTUALLY BRINGS ME TO THE WAY YOU HAVE DESCRIBED IT.

YOU KNOW, AS A PLAYBOY MODEL IN THE MAGAZINE.

AND THEN, YOU DID THE APPLIQUE.

BUT, IS IT THAT?

PEOPLE SAY, IS IT COLLAGE?

THIS IS PHOTOMONTAGE?

>> I AM QUITE STRICT ABOUT CALLING IT PHOTOMONTAGE, BECAUSE COLLAGE CAN BE, YOU STICK ANYTHING TOGETHER.

THAT IS QUITE A WIDE NET.

BUT, PHOTOMONTAGE IS VERY, VERY PUREST.

IT REALLY IS JUST CUTTING UP AND GLUING TOGETHER PHOTOGRAPHS.

AND IN THAT HISTORY, IT CAN TRACE RIGHT BACK TO THE EARLY 20th CENTURY, WHEN ALL THIS IS HAPPENING, AND NOW, I AM PARTICULARLY INTERESTED THAT THIS MEETING, PHOTOMONTAGE, IT COINCIDES WITH SOLDIERS COMING BACK FROM WORLD WAR I, WHOSE BODIES ARE CUT UP IN WAYS THAT WE HAVE NEVER WITNESSED BEFORE.

SO, YOU HAVE ARTISTS IN ZéRICH, ET CETERA, BUT THEY WATCH THESE BODIES COMING BACK, THE MECHANISM OF WAR.

SO, PHOTOMONTAGE COMES BACK, WHEN YOU CAN FIND PHOTOGRAPHS OF BODIES AND YOU CAN CUT THEM UP.

>> TELL ME HOW YOU DO IT?

BECAUSE HE JUST TALKED ABOUT SURGICAL PRECISION, AND YOU USE A SCALPEL.

IS THERE A REASON WHY YOU USE A SCALPEL?

IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT COULD BE JUST AS SHARP AND JUST AS EFFECTIVE?

>> I SOMETIMES USE SCISSORS, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT USING A SCALPEL THAT IS SO, SO PRECISE.

AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE A VERY GOOD SKILL SET TO BE ABLE TO USE IT.

OVER HALF A CENTURY OF WORKING WITH A SCALPEL, SO IT IS QUITE PAVLOVIAN.

THE MINUTE I HAVE A SCALPEL IN MY HANDS, THAT PART OF THE PSYCHE GETS QUITE EXCITED AND IT IS LIKE, OKAY, NOW, WE WILL DO OPERATIONS UPON OUR BOOKS AND MAGAZINES, FOR THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS.

SO, THE SCALPEL FEELS CLEAN.

IT MAKES A CLEAN CUT.

>> IT'S NOT VIOLENT?

>> NO, IT FEELS REPETITIVE, IT FEELS THE OPPOSITE OF VIOLENT, AND FEELS LIKE A SURGERY, HEART SURGERY, SO THAT CUT DOESN'T FEEL VIOLENT, THAT CUT FEELS VERY LIFE ENHANCING, AND IT ALLOWS ME TO PUT OUT INTO THE WORLD UPON WHICH EVERYONE ELSE CAN HAVE THEIR OWN MEANING.

>> HAVE YOU EVER BEEN SURPRISED BY SOME OF THE IMPRESSIONS PEOPLE TAKE IN THE MEANINGS THEY PROJECT ON YOUR WORK?

>> I HAVE BEEN SURPRISED, DELIGHTED, BECAUSE THERE ARE A BUNCH OF 16, 17-YEAR-OLD, 18 ROLLS LOOKING AT THOSE MONTAGES WITH WOMEN WITH VARIOUS DOMESTIC UTENSILS AND NOW THEY SEE THOSE WOMEN IS VERY POWERFUL CYBORGS.

SO, THEY DON'T SEE THEM ENCUMBERED BY THE TECHNOLOGY.

THEY SEE THESE WOMEN AS ACTUALLY EMPOWERED BY IT.

IT IS LIKE THESE CYBORG FIGURES, BEWARE IF YOU ARE CUTTING INTO THIS HOUSE, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT TOO SURE WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO ENCOUNTER.

SO, I THINK THAT GENERATION, A GENERATION I REALLY WANT TO APPEAL TO.

>> THIS EXHIBITION IS CALLED "DANGER CAME SMILING" -- WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU?

>> AT THE TIME, I MADE -- I MADE -- I RECORDED A TRACK CALLED "DANGER CAME SMILING" MANY YEARS AGO.

AND I TOOK THE TITLE FROM -- MY GRANDMOTHER USED TO GET "TRUE CONFESSIONS" MAGAZINE EVERY WEEK.

"TRUE CONCESSIONS" IS FULL OF ROMANCE, SEXY STORIES.

ONE OF THOSE STORES WAS CALLED "DANGER CAME SMILING" AND SINCE IT WAS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL LINE -- I DON'T EVEN QUITE KNOW WHAT IT MEANT.

IT WAS QUITE A THROWAWAY TITLE.

BUT I REMEMBER EVEN BACK THEN THINKING, "THIS HAS MANY FACETS."

AND WHEN WE WERE TRYING TO DECIDE THE TITLE OF THIS SHOW, THE DIRECTOR, HERE, HE WAS WEARING A T-SHIRT, CAME IN SMILING AND SAID, "THAT'S THE TITLE OF THE SHOW."

AND I THOUGHT, "REALLY, RALPH?"

SO, I HAD TO THINK ABOUT IT BUT EVERYBODY HERE AGREES IT HAD THIS KNOWINGNESS ABOUT IT.

YOU CANNOT PIN DOWN A MEETING TO "DANGER CAME SMILING" BUT WE CAN SENSE IT.

>> AND WHAT IS THE DANGER?

>> OH, THE DANGER IN THIS AGE OF DEEP FAKES, YOU COULD SAY THAT WE ARE ALL VERY, VERY VULNERABLE TO THE THEFT OF OUR OWN I.D.

THERE IS A LOT OF DANGER NOW THAT IS HAPPENING DIGITALLY, RATHER THAN THE PHYSICAL WORLD.

AND THAT IS A DANGER THAT IS HARD TO PROTECT ONESELF -- IT IS A DANGER THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO PROTECT ONESELF FROM, BECAUSE ONE'S IMAGE IS SPINNING OUT INTO HYPERSPACE.

SO, I THINK THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF DANGEROUS NOW THAT WEREN'T AROUND 20 YEARS AGO.

>> AND WE HAVE SEEN THE FILM "THE SUBSTANCE."

IT TAKES THE WOMAN'S OBSESSION, OR SOCIETY'S OBSESSION OF WHAT A WOMAN SHOULD LOOK LIKE, TO A DEGREE THAT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN ON FILM.

IT IS NEVER GOING TO END, IS IT?

THIS OBSESSION, THIS FORCEFUL WAVE AGAINST WOMEN AND HOW THEY SHOULD LOOK.

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS.

AND IN FACT, I LOOK BACK TO MY YOUNGER, OPTIMISTIC SELF, AND I LOOK AT, LIKE I SAY, 16-YEAR- OLDS, 25-YEAR-OLD NOW, AND YOU HAVE THE OPTIMISM THAT THINGS WILL CHANGE, AND I DON'T WANT TO BE THERE FOR THE 70-YEAR- OLDS -- [ LAUGHTER ] WORRYING EVERYBODY.

BUT, MAYBE, NOW, IF IT IS AT ITS PEAK, MAYBE IT WILL IMPLODE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IMPLOSION WOULD LOOK LIKE.

BUT, THE PRESSURE, PARTICULARLY ON WOMEN AND YOUNG WOMEN TO ALWAYS SEEM TO BE PERFORMING AT AN MAXIMUM, ALWAYS LOOKING EXQUISITE.

>> LINDA, WHAT IS THIS?

IT LOOKS LIKE A CUT UP CARPET.

WHAT IS THE MEANING BEHIND IT?

>> THE CARPET WAS WOVEN AT THE FABRIC RE-STUDIOS IN SO THERE ARE ONLY TWO FABRIC STUDIOS LEFT IN BRITAIN SO I FEEL IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE BRING THEM OUT, LITERALLY, TO THE SPOTLIGHT, HERE.

SO, I WAS REALLY INTRIGUED ABOUT A RUG THAT COULD LIE FLAT ON THE FLOOR BUT ALSO A RUG THAT COULD PARTICULARLY PARTICIPATE IN A BALLET.

I WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH THE WEAVERS AT DOVECOT STUDIO WHO WILL THIS EXTRAORDINARY RUG.

IT HAS THIS BACKDROP WHICH IS REFERENCING ELVIS' $10,000 SUIT AS ONE OF HIS PR TROPES.

AND THEN, I ASKED THE WONDERFUL WEAVERS WHO HAD WOVEN IT, COULD THEY POSSIBLY CUT IT UP INTO A SPIRAL?

THEY SAID, "YES, WE CAN."

>> SO, THIS IS NOT YOUR WORK?

>> NO, I DIDN'T DARE.

SO, THEY CAREFULLY CUT IT UP INTO A SPIRAL, WITHIN THE BALLET, THE BALLET DANCERS DANCE UPON THE CARPET, AND THEN THAT EPISODE ONE OF THE BALLERINAS PICKED UP THE END OF THE CARPET AND IT GRADUALLY UNFOLDS AND THE DANCES WITHIN THAT.

SO, THE DANCING -- THIS CARPET ACTUALLY BECOMES THE EIGHTH DANCER.

>> AND WHEN YOU SEE IT, FIRST FOR FORMING, WHAT DID YOU THINK?

>> [ LAUGHTER ] BREATHTAKING!

DRIVE BREATHTAKING.

AND FOR THE DANCERS, TOO, THEY WERE SAYING, THIS IS LIKE ANOTHER DANCER, SHE IS LIKE A COBRA.

WHEN WE ARE INSIDE HER, IT WAS THE SHAPE OF SOME WAYS, WE'RE INSIDE THIS CARPET, WE FEEL HER EMBRACING US A LITTLE TOO TIGHTLY.

>> WITH THAT, LINDA, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> NEXT, WE TURN TO AN AMAZING SCIENTIFIC BREAKTHROUGH.

THE REINCARNATION OF THE DIRE WOLF.

THE FEARSOME SPECIES WENT EXTINCT OVER 12,000 YEARS AGO.

A DALLAS-BASED COMPANY, COLOSSAL BIOSCIENCES, WITH WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS OF SO-CALLED DE- EXTINCTION.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND PROFESSOR GEORGE CHURCH, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE AGAIN.

>> WE WOKE UP THIS WEEK TO HEADLINES THAT WEREN'T ABOUT TARIFFS OR STOCK MARKET CRASHES, BUT SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING, WHICH IS THE DIRE WOLF, KIND OF MADE FAMOUS IN "GAME OF THRONES."

AFTER 10,000 YEARS OF EXTINCTION, IT HAS SORT OF BEEN BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE BY A COMPANY YOU COFOUNDED.

EXPLAIN WHAT A BIG DEAL THAT MIGHT BE?

>> YEAH, WE ARE TRYING TO DEVELOP TECHNOLOGIES THAT WILL HELP WITH VARIOUS CONSERVATION EFFORTS, FOR PREVENTING SPECIES FROM BECOMING EXTINCT, AND IF THEY JUST GO OVER THE LINE FOR A COUPLE DAYS, NOT GIVE UP ON THEM, IF WE BRING THEM BACK.

IN THIS CASE, IT WAS MORE THAN A COUPLE OF DAYS, IT WAS 12,000 YEARS, BUT YOU GET THE IDEA.

SO, THE TECHNOLOGY IS BASED ON THINGS LIKE CRISPER, AND SEQUENCING OF ANCIENT DNA.

>> WHEN YOU SAY THAT EVERYBODY LIES A BIT ON CRISPER, THAT IS THE TOOL THAT YOU HELPED PIONEER, THAT HELP ALLOWS US TO CUT DNA IN VERY SPECIFIC PLACES, AND EVENTUALLY, YOU CAN SORT OF FIX IT AND CHANGE THE DNA.

EXPLAIN HOW YOU DID THAT, WITH THE DIRE WOLF?

>> SO, IT IS MORE THAN JUST CUT.

SOMETIMES, WHEN YOU CUT, YOU JUST MAKE A MESS.

AND THESE ARE ALL VERY PRECISE, 20 VERY PRECISE EDITS.

SO, THIS IS KIND OF A MILESTONE, WHERE WE ARE SEEING EXPONENTIAL IMPROVEMENT IN OUR ABILITY TO BE PRECISE, AND MANY OF THEM AT ONCE.

AND A LOT OF PRECISION IS THANKS TO WORK FROM MY COLLEAGUE, DAVID LOUISVILLE, A HARVARD PROFESSOR, WHERE YOU CAN CHANGE ONE BASE AT A TIME, VERY CONCISELY.

OR, WE CAN SUBSTITUTE IN BIG CHUNKS OF DNA, WHICH IS ANOTHER THING THAT WE ARE DEVELOPING.

>> YOU JUST MENTIONED DAVID LIEU, THE HARVARD PROFESSOR, AND HE JUST WON THE BREAKTHROUGH PRIZE, FOR WHAT IS CALLED BASE EDITING, AND PRIME EDITING, WHICH MEANS THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY INSERT CERTAIN GENES THAT YOU WANT.

DID YOU DO THAT, WHEN YOU TRIED TO RE-CREATE THE DIRE WOLF?

>> YES, WE HAVE -- WE ARE USING BOTH BASE EDITING AND PRIME EDITING FOR VARIOUS PROJECTS, AT COLOSSAL.

>> AND ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT IT IS THAT YOU HAVEN'T REALLY "CLONED" THE WOLF.

EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT YOU DID, AND CLONING?

>> WELL, WE USE CLONING AS PART OF THE PROCESS.

BUT, WHAT WE DIDN'T DO WAS FIND SOME MAGICAL SAMPLE WHERE THE NUCLEUS OF A CELL HAS SURVIVED.

INSTEAD, WHAT WE DO ROUTINELY FOR ALMOST ALL THE SPECIES WE WORK ON, FOR ALL THE ANCIENT DNA WE WORK ON, IS THAT DNA IS HIGHLY DEGRADED AND WE READ IT WITH MODERN TECHNIQUES INTO A COMPUTER, AND FROM THE COMPUTER, WE SYNTHESIZE IT, AND THEN PUT IT INTO A CELL, AND THEN WE WILL TAKE THE NUCLEUS FROM THAT CELL, AND MOVE IT OVER INTO AN EMBRYO, A SURROGATE.

IN THIS CASE, A DOG.

AND THEN, CREATE WOLVES.

SO, THIS CLONING IS A LITTLE PIECE OF IT.

BUT, MOSTLY, THE MAGIC COMES FROM MULTIPLEX PRECISE EDITING.

>> YOU KNOW, IT WAS ALMOST 30 YEARS AGO WHEN DOLLY THE SHEEP WAS CLONED.

I REMEMBER WE PUT HER ON THE COVER OF TIME MAGAZINE, IT WAS GOING TO BE A BIG DEAL.

HOW COME CLONING HASN'T BECOME THAT BIG OF A DEAL?

>> I THINK LIKE A LOT OF THINGS IN OUR LIFE, IT IS THAT BIG OF A DEAL, BUT JUST NOBODY NOTICES IT.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WE USE CLONING TO ALSO CREATE PIGS, WHICH ARE COMPATIBLE WITH HUMAN TRANSPLANTS.

MOST RECENTLY, THE TRANSPLANT PATIENT WAS A KIDNEY, DOWN AT MASSACHUSETTS GENERAL HOSPITAL JANUARY 25th OF THIS YEAR.

SO, THAT IS DUE TO CLONING, AS WELL.

THERE ARE MANY AGRICULTURAL USES, AS WELL.

IT JUST BECOME SO ACCEPTED THAT WE TAKE IT FOR GRANTED.

>> BUT, COULD WE REALLY CLONE OUR PETS, OUR CHILDREN, OURSELVES?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S NOT GENERALLY CONSIDERED ETHICAL, IN PART BECAUSE IT HASN'T BEEN THROUGH FDA APPROVAL.

BUT, FOR DEEPER REASONS THAN THAT, TO DO HUMAN BEINGS, AND IT IS NOT NECESSARY.

BUT, PETS ARE DONE AND AGRICULTURAL SPECIES ARE DONE, AND TRANSPLANTS ARE DONE THAT WAY.

SO, IT HAS WAYS FOR HUMAN BODIES, BUT ONLY VIA TRANSPLANTS.

>> EXPLAIN TO ME THE DIRE WOLF THING.

YOU EDITED GRAY WOLVES TO HAVE LOTS OF THE DNA AND TRAITS OF THE EXTINCT DIRE WOLF.

BUT, ARE THESE REALLY DIRE WOLVES?

OR, ARE THEY GRAY WOLVES WITH SOME OF THE TRAITS EDITED IN?

>> SO, THE WHOLE SPECIES DEFINITION IS INTENTIONALLY BLURRY, IN THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT.

AND ALSO, IN DEFINITIONS.

IT IS A MIXTURE OF WHAT CAN BREED WITH WHAT, WHAT HAS DIFFERENT PHYSICAL TRAITS, AND SO FORTH.

AND ALSO, YOU CAN LITERALLY SPECIES WITH AS MUCH AS ONE CHANGE, BUT THERE IS MILLIONS OF CHANGES WITHIN THE POPULATION, MILLIONS OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN, SAY, YOU AND ME, BUT NONE OF THOSE ARE SPECIES LEVEL DIFFERENCES, BECAUSE I THINK MOST PEOPLE UNDERSTAND YOU AND I ARE THE SAME SPECIES.

>> SO, THIS IS A DIRE WOLF?

>> I THINK THIS IS MUCH MORE RECOGNIZABLE AS A DIRE WOLF THAN ANY OTHER KIND OF WOLF.

WE ALSO -- SORRY -- DID CLONED THE RED WOLF, WHICH IS AN ENDANGERED SPECIES, PROBABLY THE MOST RARE WOLF IN THE WORLD.

AND THAT IS A RED WOLF.

>> AS YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ANYBODY ON THE PLANET, GENES CAN HAVE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES AND EFFECTS, INCLUDING IN THIS ONE, WITH THE GENE YOU DID TO THE GRAY WOLF TO GIVE IT A WHITE COAT, CAN ALSO CAUSE DEAFNESS AND BLINDNESS.

SO, EXPLAIN THAT TO ME?

>> RIGHT, SO THIS WAS A CASE WHERE WE DIDN'T DO IT IN ORDER TO BE SIMPLE.

WE MADE OUR LIFE A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED, AND IN ORDER TO BE KIND WITHOUT THE FIRST GENERATION OF DIRE WOLF, WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE WE DIDN'T ACCIDENTALLY PUT IN AN ALLELE THAT COULD CAUSE THE KINDS OF SENSORY PROBLEMS THAT HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH ONE OF THESE ALLELES THAT WE FOUND.

SO, WE DID A SUBSTITUTE ALLELE.

WE ARE LOOKING FOR FUNCTIONAL DE-EXTINCTION WHERE THEY CAN FEEL A PARTICULAR BIOLOGICAL NICHE.

ANYWAY, WE CHOSE AN UNNATURAL ALLELE AT THAT ONE, BUT MOST OF THE 20 ALLELES THAT WE CHANGED, THERE WAS NO COMPROMISE BETWEEN THE HEALTH OF THE NEW SPECIES, AND -- AND THE ALLELES THAT WE CHOSE.

>> WE HAVE TALKED A LOT, YOU AND I, ABOUT THE WOOLLY MAMMOTH.

AND, THE ROLE THAT HAS PLAYED IN YOUR DE-EXTINCTION COMPANY.

TELL ME HOW THAT IS GOING?

>> WELL, THE REAL GOAL OF COLOSSAL IS DEVELOPING TECHNOLOGY THAT CAN BE USED FREELY FOR CONSERVATION EFFORTS, AND WITH LOTS OF OTHER APPLICATIONS TO HUMAN HEALTH AND SO FORTH.

THE MAMMOTH IS MORE CHALLENGING THAN BOTH THE MOUSE AND THE WOLF THAT WE HAVE DONE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE SHORT GESTATION PERIODS, SO AS LITTLE AS 20 DAYS FOR THE MOUSE, WHILE THE ELEPHANT IS 22 MONTHS.

BECAUSE IT IS AN ENDANGERED SPECIES, AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WANT TO DO IS GIVE THEM NEW LAND, THERE IS MORE COMPLEXITY TO GETTING ACCESS TO THE TISSUES, AND THE LANDS THAT THEY WILL GO ON TO.

SO, WE KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING THAT WAS GOING TO BE SLOW, SO THAT IS WHY WE PICKED OTHER SPECIES TO WORK OUT OUR TECHNOLOGY AND SHOW THE WORLD THAT WE, YOU KNOW, ARE SEMI- COMPETENT.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THE JURASSIC PARK QUESTION, WHICH IS, WHAT COULD GO WRONG, REINTRODUCING SPECIES LIKE THIS INTO THE WILD?

AND IS THERE SOME REGULATION, OR SELF-REGULATION?

>> THERE IS PLENTY OF REGULATION, AND THE SUPPLIES TO THE PIGS THAT I REFERRED TO, AS WELL.

THE FDA REGULATES SAFETY AND EFFICACY, BOTH FOR THE ANIMAL, AND, IN THE CASE OF TRANSPLANTS, FOR THE HUMAN BEING.

THERE IS A LOT OF REGULATIONS.

YES, THERE IS ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY AND THEIR EQUIVALENTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

AND THERE SHOULD BE.

WE ARE DELIGHTED TO BE WORKING WITH THEM.

THERE IS ALSO CONSIDERATIONS OF LOCAL POPULATIONS, INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, SUPPORT THERE, BUT WE ARE NOT RUSHING INTO THIS ON PUBLIC LAND UNTIL WE HAVE HAD A VERY BROAD CONVERSATION AND CONSENSUS.

>> WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, IF THE DIRE WOLVES THAT YOU HAVE SORT OF RE-CREATED JUST WENT OUT INTO THE WILD, SOMEDAY?

WOULD EVERYTHING BE ALL RIGHT, OR WOULD THERE BE A PROBLEM?

>> AGAIN, I WOULDN'T RUSH TO DO THAT.

WE -- RIGHT NOW, THEY WOULD PROBABLY BE CAPABLE OF BREEDING WITH A VARIETY OF WHAT WE CALL "SPECIES."

BUT, "SPECIES," LIKE I SAID, IS A BROAD TERM, AND THERE IS NOT SHARP EDGES TO THE BREEDING.

WE COULD MAKE THEM SO THAT THEY DON'T INTERBREED.

WE COULD EVEN MAKE THEM SO THAT THEY COULDN'T LEAVE THE ENCLOSURE THAT THEY ARE IN, WHICH IS NOW 2000 ACRES, WHICH IS QUITE GENEROUS.

BUT, YEAH, IN WHAT WE HAVE SEEN CAN GO WRONG, JUST BECAUSE WE CAN'T THINK OF SOMETHING AT THIS MINUTE, DOESN'T MEAN WE STOP LOOKING FOR, AND ENGAGING ALL KINDS OF ECOLOGISTS, AND BIOLOGISTS, AND SO FORTH, TO THINK OUT OF THE BOX AS TO WHAT COULD GO WRONG BEFORE WE DO IT.

>> YOUR COMPANY THAT YOU COFOUNDED HAS A $10 BILLION OR MORE VALUATION.

EXPLAINED TO ME, WHAT IS THE REVENUE STREAM?

WHAT DO YOU ENVISION?

>> I THINK THAT, FROM THE BEGINNING, WHAT THE INVESTORS ARE LOOKING FOR, HIS NEW TECHNOLOGIES.

AND, IN FACT, THAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING WITH SPUN OFF FARM BIO, A COMPUTATIONAL BIOLOGY COMPANY, WHICH HAS BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN ALL THINGS THAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT TODAY, IN THIS CONVERSATION.

WE HAVE ALSO, IN THE PROCESS OF MAKING GAMETES, WE HAVE SPUN OFF A -- IT IS THE FIRST FDA APPROVED PHASE THREE TRIAL FOR AN IPS DERIVED CELL.

IPS IS A VERY IMPORTANT SOURCE OF SOME STEM CELLS THAT ARE MAKING THEIR WAY INTO MULTIPLE PRODUCTS, BUT THIS ONE JUMPED TO THE FRONT LINE, ENABLING MATURATION OF EGGS IN IVF CLINICS.

SO, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE HAD, BOTH VETERINARY AND HUMAN USE, AND THERE WILL BE MANY MORE, I AM SURE.

>> WHEN YOU AND I LAST SPOKE ON THIS SHOW, ABOUT FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO, YOU TALKED ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE BEING IMPORTANT IN WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO.

EXPLAIN HOW THAT WAS RELEVANT, HERE, AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING WITH IT?

>> WELL, SO, BACK THEN, IT WAS JUST BEGINNING TO SHOW ITS VALUE.

I MEAN, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAD SEEN IT COMING, AND A LOT HADN'T.

BUT, TODAY, IT IS UNDENIABLE, AND I THINK ONE OF THE MAJOR APPLICATIONS OF A.I., EVEN MORE AMAZING THAN ART, AND LANGUAGE, I THINK, IS THIS APPLICATION TO PROTEIN DESIGN.

THIS WAS RECOGNIZED IN THIS YEAR'S NOBEL PRIZES.

AND, IN PARTICULAR, MY GOOD FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE, DAVID BAKER, HAS BEEN DOING THIS, AND FIVE OF MY RECENT STARTUPS HAVE USED IT ROUTINELY, IN COMBINATION WITH LARGE LIBRARIES.

AND WE ARE USING IT ESSENTIALLY EVERYWHERE NOW, FOR DIAGNOSTICS, FOR THERAPEUTICS, FOR THE KIND OF WORK THAT WE HAVE BEEN DESCRIBING HERE, ON WILD ANIMALS.

IT REALLY IS VERY HELPFUL.

I MEAN, SO FAR, IT'S DEFINITELY DEPENDS HEAVILY ON COLLABORATION WITH HUMANS, AND CREATIVITY, AND A THINKING OF PERSPECTIVE OF ETHICS IN HUMANS.

BUT, IT IS TREMENDOUS, AT TIMES, TO BE A SCIENTIST.

>> YOU HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT USING GENE EDITING TOOLS, INCLUDING CRISPER, BASE EDITING, THE THINGS WE TALKED ABOUT, THAT DAVID LIEU JUST WON THE BREAKTHROUGH PRIZE FOUR.

IN ORDER TO RE-CREATE AN EXTINCT SPECIES, COULD YOU CREATE NEW SPECIES, ONE THAT NEVER EXISTED BEFORE, WOULD THAT BE A GOOD IDEA?

>> YOU ASKED, I MEAN, TWO QUESTIONS.

COULD YOU, AND IS IT A GOOD IDEA?

I THINK IT COULD BE DONE, TECHNICALLY.

AND IT COULD BE A GOOD IDEA, IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A SPECIES THAT HAS A PARTICULAR NICHE, BUT YOU WANT IT TO IMMEDIATELY NOT INTERBREED WITH ANOTHER SPECIES, BECAUSE I THINK THAT COULD BE VERY EASILY DONE, AND ONE OF THE RESEARCH PROJECTS IN MY LAB IS TO FIND OUT HOW TO DO THAT.

IN THE EASIEST WAY POSSIBLE.

>> GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT IN THE LAB?

>> WELL, SO, THERE ARE A FEW EXAMPLES OF WHERE YOU CAN GET SPECIATION WITH A SINGLE MUTATION, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CHIRALITY OF SNAILS, CALLED A SPECIATION, OBSERVED MULTIPLE TIMES.

YOU CAN GET INABILITY TO PRODUCE FERTILE OFFSPRING, IF YOU HAVE MULTIPLE RECIPROCAL TRANSLOCATIONS IN THE CHROMOSOMES, THINGS THAT ALLOW INTERBREED WITH A CELL, BUT NOT WITH THE SPECIES THAT IT CAME OUT OF.

SO, THOSE ARE TWO EXAMPLES, BUT THERE ARE MANY MORE -- BEHAVIORAL CHANGES CAN HAPPEN WITH SINGLE MUTATIONS AND SO FORTH.

>> HOW MANY COMPANIES, BY THE WAY, HAVE YOU COFOUNDED?

>> I HAVE COFOUNDED 50.

49, 50.

AND I HAVE HELPED WITH QUITE A FEW MORE.

>> BY COFOUNDING THAT MANY COMPANIES, YOU ARE SORT OF THE POSTER CHILD FOR WHY AMERICAN SCIENCE HAS BEEN SO INNOVATIVE AND ENTREPRENEURIAL, EVER SINCE THE END OF WORLD WAR II.

WHICH, THERE IS A FUNDING OF BASIC RESEARCH AT UNIVERSITIES, AND THE PEOPLE WHO DO IT FIND WAYS TO TRANSLATE THAT FROM THE BENCH, TO THE LAB, TO THE BEDSIDE OF A PATIENT, FOR EXAMPLE, AND TO TURN THEM INTO COMPANIES.

ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THE CUTS IN FEDERAL SUPPORT FOR BASIC RESEARCH, IS GOING TO END THAT 70 YEAR BOOM THAT WE HAVE HAD IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> WELL, I WORRY ABOUT EVERYTHING.

I THINK, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, I READ SOMETHING RECENTLY, TODAY, THAT THERE WAS A PROPOSAL FOR A $15 BILLION FOR BIOTECH, SPECIFICALLY SO WE COULD BE COMPETITIVE, INTERNATIONALLY.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT WILL ARRIVE OR NOT, OR WHETHER THAT WILL SUFFICIENTLY SUPPORT BASIC SCIENCE.

BUT, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH, I THINK, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, WHICH IS THAT BASIC SCIENCE HAS BEEN IMPORTANT TO ALMOST -- WELL, ESSENTIALLY, EVERYTHING WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HERE, AND MANY OTHERS.

AND, INCREASINGLY, IT GOES VERY QUICKLY FROM BASIC SCIENCE, TO APPLICATIONS.

ALTHOUGH, IT DOESN'T NEED TO.

I THINK WE NEED TO BE FLEXIBLE, IN OUR SUPPORT OF THIS.

BUT, IT IS INSPIRING, YOU KNOW?

NO MATTER HOW DIRE -- SORRY TO USE THE WORD -- THE ECONOMIC REPORTS CAN BE, TO SEE NEW BREAKTHROUGHS HAVING AN IMPACT ON HEALTHCARE AND OTHER ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES, I THINK, GIVES US NEW HOPE.

>> GEORGE CHURCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> IT WOULD BE GREAT TO KNOW HOW MANY SPECIES POSSIBLY COULD BE D EXTINCT.

AND THAT IS NOT EVEN OUR ENVIRONMENTAL CRISIS.

>>> FINALLY, LET'S TAKE A MOMENT TO MARK 27 YEARS OF PEACE IN NORTHERN IRELAND.

THE GOOD FRIDAY OF GREENLAND WAS SIGNED THIS DAY IN 1998 BRINGING THREE DECADES OF CONFLICT, KNOWN AS THE TROUBLES, TO AN END.

MORE THAN 3500 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

THE PEACE ACCORD ACHIEVEMENT REMAINS A BEACON OF HOPE FOR THE PEOPLE PUSHING FOR THIS KIND OF SOLUTION AROUND THE WORLD.

AND, A REMINDER, OF COURSE, OF WHAT IS POSSIBLE, AS THE IRISH AUTHOR, COLIN McCANN, REFLECTED ON, WHEN I SPOKE TO HIM RECENTLY.

>> I AM 60 YEARS OLD, NOW.

WHEN I WAS 16 YEARS OLD, I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY IMPOSSIBLE, FOR THINGS IN NORTHERN IRELAND TO BE AT PEACE.

AND FOR MY ISLAND TO HAVE 27 YEARS OF PEACE.

I WOULD HAVE LAUGHED AT YOU.

I WOULD HAVE SAID, "THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CRAZY."

BUT, THE THING ABOUT IT IS, IS THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE, MEN AND PARTICULARLY WOMEN, IN FACT, ESPECIALLY IN NORTHERN IRELAND, WOMEN OF PURPOSE AND CONVICTION, WHO BELIEVE THAT THIS STUFF NOT ONLY SHOULD STOP, BUT WILL STOP, AND HAVE TO STOP.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SENATOR MITCHELL IS TALKING ABOUT, IS PASSING THE TORCH.

IT IS TIME TO GIVE THE YOUNGER GENERATION A CHANCE TO UNDERSTAND.

THEY WILL TAKE IT IN NEW WAYS, IN ABSOLUTELY NEW DIRECTIONS.

BUT, THE FACT THAT THE PEACE HAS HELD -- YES, IT IS SHAKY.

YES, IT IS A BIT TOUCHY AT TIMES.

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT.

BUT, IT HAS HELD, AND IT IS A SHINING HUMAN EXAMPLE OF WHAT CAN BE DONE.

>> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

GOOD LUCK, AND GOOD NIGHT FROM LONDON.