>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

> >> GLOBAL MARKETS MELT DOWN, AS PRESIDENT TRUMP DEFENDS HIS TARIFFS.

WE UNPACK THE RAMIFICATIONS FOR ORDINARY AMERICANS WITH FORMER ECONOMIC ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA BETSEY STEVENSON, AND PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN JUSTIN WOLFERS.

> >> THEN -- >> THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY LOOKS LIKE!

>> AMERICA STARTS TO RESIST.

MASS PROTESTS AGAINST TRUMP'S POLICIES TAKE PLACE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

> >> PLUS, TURKEY'S OPPOSITION VOWS TO SUSTAIN MASS DEMONSTRATION AFTER PRESIDENT ERDOGAN JAILS HIS PLAIN POLITICAL RIVAL.

I'LL DISCUSS WITH A TURKISH JOURNALIST.

> >> ALSO AHEAD -- >> YOU ARE COMPENSATED IN OTHER WAYS, BY GETTING TO BE ARTISTIC AND CREATIVE AND GOING TO INTERESTING PARTIES AND FEELING LIKE YOU WERE PART OF THE CULTURE.

SO, THAT PART HAS GONE AWAY.

>> IS IT THE END OF WORK AS WE KNOW IT?

MICHEL MARTIN DISCUSSES THE FUTURE OF WORK WITH "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER STEVEN KURUTZ ON HIS LATEST PIECE, "THE GEN X CAREER MELTDOWN."

>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT HE WON'T BACK DOWN FROM HIS AGGRESSIVE TRADE POLICIES.

MARKETS OPENED IN BEAR MARKET TERRITORY MONDAY.

THAT IS A 20% DECLINE FROM A RECENT PEAK.

THIS FOLLOWED AN HISTORIC ROUT IN ASIA AND MASSIVE LOSSES IN EUROPE.

THE HEAD OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION SAID THE EU IS READY TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE UNITED STATES.

>> INDEED, WE HAVE OFFERED 0 FOR 0 TARIFFS FOR INDUSTRIAL GOODS, ANDS AS WE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DONE WITH MANY OTHER TRADING PARTNERS, BECAUSE EUROPE IS ALWAYS READY FOR A GOOD DEAL, SO, WE KEEP IT ON THE TABLE.

BUT WE ARE ALSO PREPARED TO RESPOND THROUGH COUNTERMEASURES AND DEFEND OUR INTERESTS.

>> TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS THE STOCK MARKET'S WORST START TO A PRESIDENTIAL TERM IN MODERN HISTORY.

UNLIKE PREVIOUS ECONOMIC CRISES, THE PAIN HERE IS ENTIRELY SELF-INFLICTED.

THE ECONOMY TRUMP INHERITED WAS IN A VERY GOOD PLACE.

DESPITE HAVING AN INFLATION PROBLEM, THE ECONOMY AVOIDED A RECESSION AND CARRIED OUT WHAT ECONOMISTS CALLED A SOFT LANDING.

WELL, JPMORGAN NOW SAYS A RECESSION IS LIKELY TO HAPPEN THIS YEAR.

AND TARIFFS WILL MAKE PRICES CLIMB BY UP TO 2%.

TRUMP'S TRADE ADVISER PETER NAVARRO PUSHED BACK ON RECESSION FEARS.

>> THE BIGGEST TAX CUT IN AMERICAN HISTORY , THE BROADEST BASED TAX CUT IN AMERICAN HISTORY, IS COMING WITHIN A MATTER OF MONTHS, SO, ANY DISCUSSION OF RECESSION SEEMS SILLY.

>> OKAY.

>> WHEN YOU FACTOR THAT IN.

>> SO, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR AVERAGE WORKERS AND CONSUMERS?

BETSEY STEVENSON IS A FORMER ECONOMIC ADVISER FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA AND PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.

JUSTIN WOLFERS IS ALSO A PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.

AND THEY BOTH JOIN ME NOW.

GOOD TO HAVE TWO LIVE PARTNERS ON THE SHOW TALKING ABOUT THE SAME SUBJECT, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

OKAY, SO, LET'S START WITH YOU, BETSEY.

WE SEE THE MARKETS ONCE AGAIN IN TURMOIL AROUND THE WORLD, BLINKING RED LIGHTS ABOUT RECESSION FEARS, IF NOT WORSE IN THE MONTHS AND WEEKS TO COME, IF THESE TARIFFS ARE ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED, WHICH ARE SET TO GO INTO EFFECT JUST TWO DAYS FROM NOW.

BUT THE PRESIDENT SEEMS UNFAZED.

HE PLAYED GOLF OVER THE WEEKEND.

IS TELLING REPUBLICANS, IT APPEARS, OVER TWITTER, NOT TO PANIC AT THIS POINT.

AND HE SAYS, SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO TAKE MEDICINE TO FIX SOMETHING.

I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, BETSEY, IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT YOU'VE HEARD, FROM EITHER THE PRESIDENT OR FROM HIS ADVISERS, AS TO WHAT EXACTLY NEEDS TO BE FIXED?

>> WELL, THERE'S A LOT THERE.

NO, I DON'T THINK THAT THERE IS A CLEAR PLAN.

HE SEEMS TO HAVE A VIEW THAT ANY TIME WE'RE BUYING SOMETHING FROM SOMEBODY ELSE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GIVING UP MONEY, WHICH IS BAD, AND SO, WE JUST SHOULDN'T BUY THINGS.

THAT SEEMS TO BE HIS --HIS LOGIC.

THERE IS SOME LYING SENSE THAT AMERICA NEEDS TO REBUILD MANUFACTURING.

WE CAN DEFINITELY DIG INTO THAT AND TALK ABOUT THAT, BUT ACROSS THE BOARD TARIFFS, NOT ABOUT THE REBUILDING OF MANUFACTURING.

WE PUT A TARIFF ON VANILLA HAVE MADAGASCAR.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO START GROWING VANILLA IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND FRANKLY, WE'RE NOT REALLY EVEN GOING TO START MAKING NIKES AGAIN IN THE U. S. OR DOING A LOT OF OUR GARMENT PRODUCTION IN THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT IS REALLY GOING TO HAPPEN IS, WE'RE GOING TO PAY MORE FOR STUFF BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO PAY MORE FOR STUFF, WE'RE GOING TO BUY LESS STUFF, AND THAT'S WHAT MARKETS ARE MELTING DOWN.

THEY'RE SEEING THE NET PRESENT VALUE OF SALES THROUGH THE NEXT MANY, MANY YEARS, NOT JUST THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, NOT JUST A SMALL DISRUPTION, BUT COMING DOWN DUE TO THESE POLICIES.

>> AND JUSTIN, GIVEN THESE POLICIES, IF THEY ARE, IN FACT, IMPLEMENTED, YOU HAVE A PIECE OUT OVER THE WEEKEND THAT SAYS YOUR LIFE WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AFTER THESE TARIFFS, AND YOU NOTE THAT TARIFFS ARE COSTLY NOT JUST BECAUSE THEY RAISE PRICES, BUT BECAUSE THEY FORCE YOU TO MAKE DIFFERENT DECISIONS, IN TERMS OF EXTRACTING A DIFFERENT KIND OF COST FROM YOU, AS WELL.

CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH A REAL LIFE EXAMPLE?

>> YEAH, SO, FOR YOU VIEWERS, NEXT TIME YOU'RE AT THE GROCERY STORE, WHAT I WANT YOU TO DO, JUST PICK UP A FEW ITEMS, AND NORMALLY, YOU'D LIKE AT THE PRICE TAG, BUT THIS TIME, TAKE A LOOK AT WHERE IT WAS MADE.

YOU'LL DISCOVER A WHOLE HECK OF A LOT OF YOUR FAMILY BUDGET IS SPENT ON STUFF THAT COMES FROM ABROAD.

AND EVEN THE STUFF THAT'S MADE IN AMERICA TURNS OUT TO BE MADE IN AMERICA OFTEN BASED ON RAW MATERIALS FROM ABROAD.

SO, START FACTORING IN A 20% PRICE HIKE ON ALL OF THAT STUFF.

AND THEN, IT GETS HARDER THAN THAT AGAIN, WHICH IS, THERE ARE THINGS LIKE, SAY, THERE'S GOING TO BE HIGHER WASHING MACHINE PRICES.

ONE WAY TO AVOID PAYING THOSE HIGHER PRICES IS, YOU KEEP THE OLD WASHING MACHINE AROUND.

WELL, IN THIS CASE, YOU DON'T PAY THE TARIFF IN MONEY, YOU PAY IT INSTEAD ON RUST STAINS ON YOUR OLD SHIRTS, YOU PAY IT WHEN THE MACHINE BECOMES IMBALANCED.

ALL SORTS OF WAYS THE TARIFFS WILL EFFECT EVERY CORNER OF OUR LIVES.

>> AND IT'S INTERESTING, I'M SURE A LOT OF FOLKS, MYSELF AS A JOURNALIST, AND I WOULD IMAGINE THE TWO OF YOU, SORT OF HAVE PTSD OVER THE WEEKEND, AFTER THE TWO DAYS THAT WE HAD LAST WEEK AFTER THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF LIBERATION DAY, AND THE IMPACT THIS HAD ON THE MARKETS, AND BRING S YOU BACK TO 2008, THE FINANCIAL MARKET CRASH, AND EVEN FIVE YEARS AGO, WITH THE PANDEMIC.

AND WHAT'S DIFFERENT IS, NOT ONLY WAS THIS SELF-INFLICTED, BUT BETSEY, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS SERVED IN AN ADMINISTRATION AND WORKED IN AN ADMINISTRATION, THERE WERE TOOLS IN THE TOOL BOX TO REMEDY OR TO TRY TO ADDRESS THESE CRISES.

WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS WHEN THE CRISIS IS ACTUALLY SELF-MADE?

>> WELL, I HAVE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, ONE THING I HAVE BEEN FOND OF SAYING IS THAT THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T HAVE THAT MUCH CONTROL OVER THE ECONOMY , AND NOW, I HAVE TO ADD, UNTIL NOW.

BECAUSE WHAT HE DID WAS --I MEAN, WAS JUST TEAR APART THE ENTIRE ECONOMY.

WHAT ARE THE TOOLS IN THE TOOL BOX?

STOP DOING THAT.

I THINK THAT'S THE MOST --THE BEST TOOL HE COULD USE WOULD BE TO STOP, WOULD BE TO HAVE ECONOMIC ADVISERS WHO ARE WILLING TO EXPLAIN --SOME OF THE MISTAKES IN HIS THINKING.

BECAUSE I DO THINK, LOOK, NOT EVERYBODY WAS BORN TO THINK ABOUT ECONOMICS EVERY DAY.

I TOTALLY GET THAT.

BELIEVE ME, MY KIDS TELL ME ALL THE TIME, NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TO DO ECONOMICS.

THAT'S WHY YOU SURROUND YOURSELF WITH EXPERTS, WITH ADVISERS, WHO CAN EXPLAIN THE NEGATIVE IMPLICATIONS OF THE CHOICES YOU'RE MAKING SO THAT YOU CAN MAKE GOOD CHOICES.

AND I THINK REALLY, THE ONLY REMEDY HERE IS, STOP MAKING BAD CHOICES, MAKE GOOD CHOICES.

>> AND ONE WOULD IMAGINE THAT KEVIN HASTERT OR BESET, HIS TREASURY SECRETARY, WOULD KNOW BETTER, BUT THEN YOU HAVE SOMEBODY LIKE PETER NAVARRO WHO HAS OWNED THIS TRADE POLICY, SAY, OVER THE WEEKEND, SAY, IT'S NOT ENOUGH, IF THESE COUNTRIES COME BACK TO US AND ELIMINATE THEIR TARIFFS COMPLETELY, BECAUSE HE DESCRIBED THAT AS ZERO TARIFFS IS DISINGENUOUS.

WHAT THEY NEED TO DO IS LOWER NONTARIFF BARRIERS.

JUSTIN, WALK US THROUGH WHAT THAT MEANS, AND THEN, ALSO, WHAT INCENTIVE THAT GIVES OTHER COUNTRIES TO TRY TO NEGOTIATE AT ALL WITH THE PRESIDENT HERE.

>> YEAH.

SO, THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF BARRIERS.

THERE'S TARIFFS, WHEN YOU HAVE TO PAY 10% TO IMPORT SOMETHING INTO YOUR COUNTRY.

THOSE TARIFFS ARE NOT ON CHINA, THEY'RE ON AMERICANS, WHEN HOME DEPOT BRINGS GOODS INTO AMERICA, IT'S HOME DEPOT THAT PAYS THAT TARIFF TO GET IT OUT OF CUSTOMS.

AND THEN NONTARIFF BARRIERS ARE, YOU KNOW WHAT?

ALL THAT CUSTOM STUFF, IT'S A LOT OF PAPER WORK AND A LOT HASSLE.

SO, THIS IS A TOTALLY LEGITIMATE CONCERN BACK IN TRUMP'S YOUTH, THE 1960s.

THE REALITY, THOUGH, IS THAT TRADE BARRIERS FOR MOST OF OUR TRADING PARTNERS HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY LOW NOW FOR SEVERAL DECADES.

WHAT THAT IN TURN MEANS IS THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY ASIMILAR METTIC TRADE WAR.

IT'S POSSIBLE WE'LL GET SOME --GET SOME GAINS HERE, FOR INSTANCE, VIETNAM'S TALKING ABOUT MOVING ITS TARIFFS TO ZERO.

GUESS WHAT?

VIETNAM'S AVERAGE TARIFF RATE WAS 1.

1%.

SO, IF WE WIN THE TRADE WAR, WE GET 1.

1% LOWER FROM VIETNAM.

IN THE MEANTIME, WE'VE GOT 34% RETALIATORY TARIFFS ON US FROM CHINA.

SO, LOOK, IF WE WIN, WE WIN A TINY BIT, AND ALONG THE WAY, WE'RE GOING TO IMPOSE HUGE COSTS ON THE WHOLE ECONOMY.

>> BETSEY, I GUESS IF THERE'S ANY OPTIMISM HERE TO BE HAD, OR SILVER LINING, IS THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION, AS WE NOTED, AND DESPITE WHAT SOME IN THIS ADMINISTRATION HAVE BEEN SAYING, THEY INHERITED A RATHER STRONG AND ROBUST ECONOMY.

AND THERE'S A QUESTION OF WHETHER IT CAN CUSHION OR ALLOW FOR A CUSHION FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, BUT AT WHAT POINT DOES THE REST OF THE WORLD SORT OF START TRADING WITHOUT THE UNITED STATES?

AND GOING ON SORT OF WITH THE PLAN B OF THEIR OWN?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISCALCULATIONS THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE.

THE UNITED STATES HAS GROWN FASTER THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

AND ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE DID IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT WE HAVE BEEN A NATION THAT WELCOMED IMMIGRANTS, SO, WE WERE ATTRACTING THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST.

WE BUILT THE STRONGEST UNIVERSITIES, AND WE EMBRACED TRADE.

AND WE HAD THAT RAPID GROWTH.

WHAT TRUMP WANTS TO DO IS SHUT ALL OF THAT DOWN.

SO, AS WE'RE SHUTTING ALL OF THAT DOWN, WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS, A LOT OF THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES ARE GOING TO GET TO HAVE THE KIND OF ROBUST GROWTH THAT WE HAD OVER THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS, OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, THESE OTHER COUNTRIES ARE GOING TO GET, AND I THINK WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUR STATUS AS A NATION DIMINISHED.

>> AND JUSTIN, THE -- THE YALE BUDGET LAB, IN JUST TERMS OF WHAT THIS WILL ACTUALLY, WHAT THESE TARIFFS WILL COST THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD, HERE'S WHAT THEY CAME UP WITH.

THE PRICE LEVEL FROM ALL 2025 TARIFF RISES BY 2.

3% IN THE SHORT RUN.

THE EQUIVALENT OF AN AVERAGE PER HOUSEHOLD CONSUMER LOSS OF $3,800 IN 2024 DOLLARS.

WALK US THROUGH HOW THAT'S GOING TO HAVE A RIPPLE EFFECT THROUGHOUT THE U. S. ECONOMY, IF THAT DOES, IN FACT, IF THESE TARIFFS DO, IN FACT, GO INTO FORCE.

>> YEAH, SO, THE IMPORTANT THING IS, THIS MATCHES THE WHITE HOUSE'S NUMBERS.

THEY CLAIM THEY'RE GOING TO GET $600 BILLION FROM THIS.

THE ONLY WAY YOU DO THAT IS IF THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD IS PAYING AROUND AN EXTRA $4,000 A YEAR THAT YOU HAVE TO GET FROM YOUR BUDGET.

LOOK, IT'S ACTUALLY WORSE THAN THAT.

NORMALLY, WITH TAXES, SAY IN INCOME TAX, WE CHARGE HIGHER RATES TO THE WEALTHY WHO CAN AFFORD IT AND LOWER RATES TO THE POOR.

BUT IMPORTS ARE SOMETHING THAT WE ALL BUY, WE ALL, FOR INSTANCE, FRUIT AND VEGETABLES, MANY THAT COME TO MEXICO.

SO, THESE ARE TAXES THAT ARE REALLY GOING TO HIT THE AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS HARDER THAN ANY PART OF THE ECONOMY.

SO, WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS DIRECT HARM FROM THAT.

MY SON WANTS TO ADD ONE MORE THING, THAT NINTENDO HAVE DECIDED THEY'RE GOING TO PUT OFF THE SWITCH 2, WHICH HE THINKS IS A TREMENDOUS HARM WORTH EVEN MORE THAN THAT, BUT THEN, ALSO, YOU'VE GOT --LOOK, WE WERE THINKING ABOUT BUYING A CAR NEXT MONTH.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO NOW, BECAUSE IT JUST BECAME MORE EXPENSIVE.

IF A WHOLE LOT OF FAMILIES THINK THAT WAY, THAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT CAUSES A RECESSION, AND I RECKON THE RECESSION ODDS ARE HIGH RIGHT NOW.

>> AND BIANNA, IT'S JUST SIMPLE MATH.

IF YOU HAVE TO COME UP WITH AN EXTRA $4,000 IN TAXES, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO CUT?

>> RIGHT.

RIGHT.

AND THE WAY THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS FACTORED THIS IN ALSO DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, THEY SAY THEY'RE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE THIS DOWN, ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY'RE SAYING THAT THEY WANT TO PAY DOWN THE DEBT, AND THAT COULD ONLY HAPPEN, IN THEORY, RIGHT, IF THESE TARIFFS ARE IN EFFECT FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

BETSEY, I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR HOME STATE, YOU'RE BOTH IN MICHIGAN THERE, GROUND ZERO FOR THE TARIFF IMPACT, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" HAS A PIECE OUT, CALLING MICHIGAN THE FIRST VICTIM.

I'M GOING TO QUOTE FROM ONE AUTO EXECUTIVE DARKLY PREDICTED CHERNOBYL IF TARIFFS HIT IMPORTED PARTS.

INDUSTRY EXECUTIVES AND ANALYSTS LATER SAID WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION OUTLINED WEDNESDAY WAS WORSE THAN THEY EXPECTED.

HOW IS THIS GOING TO HIT A STATE LIKE MICHIGAN?

>> YOU KNOW, IF YOU THINK ABOUT THINGS LIKE A FORD, OR, YOU KNOW, A CAR THAT IS MADE IN THE UNITED STATES , OUR BIG AMERICAN BRANDS, THEY'RE STILL BUYING PARTS FROM ALL OVER THE GLOBE.

THEY NEED TO BUY PARTS FROM ALL OVER THE GLOBE.

AND THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY OPTIMIZED THEIR PRODUCTION TO BE AS COMPETITIVE AS THEY CAN BE AROUND THE GLOBE , AND WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION'S DOING IS NOT ACTUALLY SUPPORTING THE AMERICAN AUTO INDUSTRY BY PUTTING TARIFFS ON EVERYTHING COMING IN, IT'S ACTUALLY HARMING THE AMERICAN AUTO INDUSTRY.

AND THAT'S WHY YOU'RE ALREADY STARTING TO SEE SOME LAYOFFS IN AMERICA ASSOCIATED WITH THE PRODUCTION OF --OF AUTOMOBILES.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THAT HE'S GOING TO GET A LOT MORE MANUFACTURING JOBS FROM THIS , AND IN THE SHORT RUN, WE MAY EVEN SEE A LOSS OF MANUFACTURING JOBS.

>> YEAH, STELLANTIS, WE SHOULD NOTE, THEY PAUSED PRODUCTION AT A PLANT IN MEXICO, THEY JUST ANNOUNCED THAT, FOR THE ENTIRE MONTH OF APRIL, TODAY.

JUSTIN, NOW WE HAVE THIS CONTINUED BACK AND FORTH, TIT FOR TAT BETWEEN TRUMP AND CHINA, SPECIFICALLY, TWO OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST ECONOMIES.

THE PRESIDENT NOW THREATENING AN ADDITION ADDITION AL AL TARIFF OF 50%.

HE SAID NOT GOING TO BE TALKING TO THEM, AS WELL, IF THEY DON'T WITHDRAW THEIR RETALIATORY TAR RFS OF 34%.

WHAT ARE YOUR BIGGEST CONCERNS ABOUT HOW FAR THIS COULD GO?

>> I THINK WE'RE THERE.

SO, WE'RE ALREADY AT A 54% TARIFF RATE WITH CHINA, ADD 50 POINTS TO THAT, THAT BECOMES 104.

EVERYTHING YOU BUY FROM CHINA JUST DOUBLED.

NOW, THEY'LL FIND LOTS OF CLEVER WAYS AROUND THAT.

PEOPLE WILL SHIP STUFF FROM CHINA TO A THIRD COUNTRY, WHICH WILL DO A LITTLE BIT OF EXTRA WORK AND SO ON, BUT BASICALLY, TWO OF THE WORLD'S LARGEST ECONOMIES AREN'T TALKING TO EACH OTHER, AND THEY'RE BOTH PUTTING THEMSELVES IN A SITUATION WHERE POLITICALLY IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO REVERSE COURSE.

>> AND YOU'RE GOING TO FIND EUROPE AND ASIAN COUNTRIES THAT WERE ALWAYS ECONOMICALLY AND POLITICALLY ALIGNED WITH THE UNITED STATES SEEMING TO FIND THEMSELVES TALKING TO CHINA, AS WELL.

BETSEY STEVENSON, JUSTIN WOLFERS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

BEST TO YOUR SON, I HOPE HE GETS THAT NINTENDO.

APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>> I HOPE YOURS DOES, TOO, BIANNA.

> >> WELL, NOW AS TRUMP'S POLICIES RESHAPE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND GLOBAL ORDER AS WE KNOW IT, AMERICANS ARE STARTING TO SHOW UP AND RESIST.

DEMONSTRATIONS TOOK PLACE ACROSS ALL 50 STATES AND GHOE LOBALLY AGAINST PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP AND ELON MUSK.

THE RALLIES WERE ORGANIZED BY A PRO- DEMOCRACY MOVEMENT, IN RESPONSE TO WHAT THEY CALL A HOSTILE TAKEOVER AND ATTACK ON AMERICAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS.

SO, IS THIS JUST THE BEGINNING OF A BROADER RESISTANCE MOVEMENT?

UTAH STATE SENATOR NATE BLOUIN JOINS ME NOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

WE HAD PROTESTS IN NEW YORK, IN WASHINGTON, D. C. , IN CHICAGO, ALL OVER THE COUNTRY .

WHAT REALLY STOOD OUT TO US THAT STATES EVEN LIKE UTAH, WHICH DONALD TRUMP WON BY MORE THAN 20 POINTS IN THE ELECTION IN NOVEMBER, ALSO SAW A SIGNIFICANT TURNOUT.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE FOR THESE PROTESTS, IF YOU'D EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT, BUT I SEE ON YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA SITE, YOU ACTUALLY WRITE, I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

SO, WALK US THROUGH WHAT YOU ENCOUNTERED THIS WEEKEND.

>> YEAH, I -- THANK YOU, IT'S GREAT TO BE ON HERE.

IT WAS AN EXCITING WEEKEND.

I THINK WE SAW MILLIONS OF PEOPLE COME TOGETHER ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND CERTAINLY IN UTAH, A STATE THAT IS KNOWN FOR CONSERVATIVE POLITICS, TO DRIVE UP TO CAPITOL HILL, WHERE I GO TO WORK 45 DAYS OUT OF THE YEAR DURING SESSION, AND HAVE A HARD TIME FINDING PARKING EVEN GETTING UP TO THE CAPITOL, BECAUSE OF HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE MAKING THEIR WAY UP THERE.

IT WAS REALLY SPECTACULAR.

I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT IN UTAH.

AND ADDED TO THE FACT THAT IT WAS THE LDS GENERAL CONFERENCE, SO, WE HAD THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN DOWNTOWN SALT LAKE AND I THINK THERE WERE MORE THAN A FEW OF THEM WHO MADE THEIR WAY UP FROM DOWNTOWN AT THE CONFERENCE TO THE CAPITOL, WHICH IS AN EXCITING THING TO NOTE.

>> AGAIN, WE SHOULD NOTE THAT THESE PROTESTS, THIS WAS PLANNED BEFORE THE NEWS OF LIBERATION DAY LAST WEEK, WITH THE NEW SET OF TARIFFS UNVEILED BY THE ADMINISTRATION, BUT SINCE THEN , WE'VE SEEN THE STOCK MARKETS SELL OFF SIGNIFICANTLY, MASSIVE SELLOFFS THREE DAYS IN A ROW, WE HAVEN'T SEEN THAT IN YEARS.

AND THAT'S RATTLED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN TERMS OF WHAT THAT MEANS FOR THEIR OWN FINANCIAL SECURITY, AS WELL.

SO, JUST TALK TO US ABOUT SOME OF THE CONCERNS YOU HEARD FROM PEOPLE, AGAIN, WHO HAD PLANNED TO COME EVEN BEFORE THE TARIFFS WERE ANNOUNCED.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT, IS, AS YOU MENTIONED, THESE PROTESTS HAVE BEEN PLANNED FOR, I THINK, A COUPLE OF WEEKS, AND OBVIOUSLY, LIBERATION DAY THING JUST HAPPENED LATE LAST WEEK.

PEOPLE ARE FEELING THIS ACUTELY, HITTING THEIR WALLETS AS WE SPEAK.

LISTENING TO THE LAST SEGMENT AND JUST HEARD ABOUT ALL OF THE POTENTIAL IMPACTS WE'RE GOING TO SEE OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, AND WE HEARD ALL SORTS OF CONCERNS FROM ECONOMIC CONCERNS, OBVIOUSLY, BUT IN A STATE LIKE UTAH, WHERE WE HAVE A REPUBLICAN SUPER MAJORITY IN THE LEGISLATURE, PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR HEALTH CARE, THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT SOCIAL SECURITY, THEY'RE WORRIED ABOUT OUR PUBLIC LANDS HERE IN A STATE LIKE UTAH, AND MAKING SURE THAT WE HAVE ADEQUATE OPPORTUNITIES FOR RECREATION AND PRESERVING REALLY PRISTINE NATURAL LANDS THAT MAKE SO MUCH OF THE AMERICAN WEST JUST AN INCREDIBLE PLACE TO LIVE, SO -- ALL SORTS OF THINGS, WHEN YOU HEARD HANDS-OFF, I THINK HANDS-OFF APPLIES TO ALL OF THOSE THINGS I JUST WALKED THERE THROUGH.

>> AND CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE OF THE DEMOGRAPHICS YOU SAW THERE, AS WELL?

WHO WERE THE PEOPLE THAT TURNED OUT?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT WAS A CROSS SECTION OF UTAH, OF THE COUNTRY.

YOU KNOW, OF COURSE WE SAW ALL THESE RIDICULOUS STATEMENTS ABOUT PROTESTERS BEING BUSSED IN AND THAT SORT OF THING --THIS IS UTAH, I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU BUS PEOPLE IN FROM, EVERYONE LIVES WITHIN, YOU KNOW, A FEW MILES OF THE CAPITOL IN A STATE LIKE THIS, WE'RE ONE OF THE MOST URBAN STATES IN THE COUNTRY, AS FAR AS HAVING THE MAJOR PART OF THE POPULATION, SO, I THINK PEOPLE WERE COMING FROM ALL ACROSS THE FRONT.

WE SAW PROTESTS ALL ACROSS THE STATE, ACTUALLY.

IN SOME OF OUR SMALLER CITIES, OUTSIDE OF SALT LAKE COUNTY, THERE WERE , I THINK, YOU KNOW, HALF DOZEN OR SO OTHER PROTESTS THAT ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, ACHIEVED MORE NUMBERS THAN PEOPLE WOULD HAVE EXPECTED.

SO, ON TOP OF THE, YOU KNOW, 10,000 OR SO, MAYBE, AT THE UTAH CAPITOL, THOUSANDS MORE ACROSS THE STATE.

AND THEY CAME FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE.

REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS, NONPARTISAN FOLKS, WHICH DOMINATE THE SCENE HERE IN UTAH, I DON'T THINK IT WAS ONE POLITICAL IDEOLOGY OR ANOTHER, IT'S JUST PEOPLE WHO ARE FED UP, AND TRYING TO EXERCISE THEIR VOICE, TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO GET INVOLVED, AND TO PUSH BACK ON SOME OF THE CHAOS THAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW.

IT'S JUST BEEN INCREDIBLE TO SEE HOW QUICKLY WE WENT FROM, I THINK, A SENSE OF CALM UNDER THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, TO A SENSE OF CHAOS IN THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS, AND PARTICULARLY IN THE LAST FEW DAYS HERE IN THE U. S. >> WELL, I MEAN, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT THERE WAS A SENSE OF CALM, JUST DESCRIBING IT AS A JOURNALIST, FROM THE LAST ADMINISTRATION, BECAUSE YOU DID HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO WON THE POPULAR VOTE, AS WELL, RIGHT, DURING THIS LAST ELECTION.

WHICH HE DIDN'T IN 2016, AND THERE WAS CONCERN ABOUT THE DIRECTION THE COUNTRY WAS HEADED IN ECONOMICALLY, AT LEAST, AND SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT DONALD TRUMP RAN ON APPEALED TO VOTERS WHO MAYBE DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM THE LAST TIME, OR THOUGHT WEREN'T TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, BUT THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN COME TO FRUITION IN THESE FIRST SIX WEEKS, THESE FIRST 11 WEEKS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, AND SO I'M CURIOUS IF YOU HEARD FROM VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR HIM, WHETHER IN 2016 OR IN NOVEMBER THAT NOW THAT HAVE SECOND THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT VOTE?

>> YEAH, I THINK, IT'S A GOOD POINT, TRUMP WON THE POPULAR VOTE.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T QUITE GRASP THE ROBUST RECOVERY THAT THE U. S. HAS MADE OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, AND, YOU KNOW, HAVING SEEN THINGS SEEMINGLY ON AUTO PILOT, THEY DIDN'T FEEL LIKE THINGS WERE WORKING FOR THEM, BUT FOR THE LARGER ECONOMY, I THINK, IT WAS --IT WAS HEADED LARGELY IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, AND SO, I THINK PEOPLE ARE FEELING BUYER'S REMORSE, I'VE CERTAINLY TALKED TO FOLKS HERE IN UTAH WHO EITHER HAVEN'T VOTED IN THE PAST OR CAME OUT, OR HAVE, YOU KNOW, CHANGED THEIR OPINION OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

I HAVE PLENTY OF CONSERVATIVE FAMILY MEMBERS HERE IN THE STATE THAT I DON'T THINK IN THE PAST WOULD HAVE NECESSARILY CONSIDERED VOTING FOR DEMOCRATS, BUT RIGHT NOW, I THINK THERE'S A STRONG SENSE THAT WE'RE JUST TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR PEOPLE, THAT WE'RE TRYING TO BRING, AGAIN, BACK A SENSE OF CALM TO THE ECONOMY, TO SOCIAL ISSUES, AND TRYING TO TAMP DOWN SOME OF THIS -- THIS CONTROVERSY AND ALL OF THIS CONFLICT THAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE COUNTRY, BECAUSE IT CERTAINLY IS GOING TO TEAR US APART, IF WE DON'T REALLY GET FOCUSED ON THE THINGS THAT MATTER AND SET ASIDE SOME OF THESE SOCIAL ISSUES THAT I THINK PEOPLE GET SO WORKED UP ABOUT AND ARE, YOU KNOW, IMPORTANT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE, BUT IN THE END, IT'S GOING TO COME DOWN TO HOW PEOPLE ARE FEELING THE ECONOMY IS WORKING FOR THEM, HOW THEIR FAMILIES ARE FARING.

AND WE'RE NOT SEEING A LOT OF SOLUTIONS COMING FROM REPUBLICANS, WHETHER IT'S HERE IN UTAH, OR AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, AND SO, TRYING TO RESTORE A LITTLE BIT OF FAITH IN SOME OF OUR INSTITUTIONS, I THINK, IS SOMETHING --WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO THAT, BUT IT'S CRITICAL THAT WE MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION.

>> SO, WHERE DO THESE PROTESTS AND THIS MOVEMENT GO FROM HERE?

>> YEAH, I KNOW THERE'S ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS FOR FOLKS TO COME OUT AND DEMONSTRATE.

I THINK TWO WEEKS FROM SATURDAY , SO, APRIL 19th, I BELIEVE, THERE'S SOME MORE PLANS.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, MORE THAN --MORE THAN JUST PROTESTING, I THINK IT'S GREAT FOR PEOPLE TO GET OUT AND EXERCISE THEIR VOICES.

THAT'S A PART OF A FLOURISHING DEMOCRACY, FOR SURE, IS SHOWING UP AND DEMONSTRATING AND PUSHING BACK AND SPEAKING TRUTH TO POWER.

BUT WE NEED PEOPLE TO GET INVOLVED, LOCAL COMMUNITY COUNCILS, PTAs, RUN FUR OR SCHOOL BOARD, CITY COUNCIL.

I'M THE YOUNGEST MEMBER OF THE UTAH SENATE, YOU KNOW, I TOOK ON A LONG TIME INCUMBENT A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE EXCITED TO HAVE SOME NEW VOICES STEPPING IN THAT BRING BOTH SOME EXPERTISE IN CERTAIN MATTERS, BUT ALSO AN ABILITY TO PUSH BACK ON SOME OF THE NARRATIVES THAT HAVE DOMINATED U. S. POLITICS, AND REALLY, I THINK, CREATED A LOT OF THIS --THIS DISCORD IN THE COUNTRY.

>> YEAH.

SOME FRESH PERSPECTIVE, AS WELL.

SENATOR, PLEASE COME BACK.

THANK YOU FOR THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> WELL, NOW TO TURKEY, WHERE THE COUNTRY'S BIGGEST PROTEST MOVEMENT IN MORE THAN A DECADE IS VOWING TO KEEP UP ITS ANTI-GOVERNMENT DEMONSTRATIONS.

THE UNREST BEGAN IN MARCH, FOLLOWING THE ARREST OF PRESIDENT ERDOGAN'S MAIN RIVAL AND MAYOR OF ISTANBUL ON CORRUPTION CHARGES.

CRITICS CALL IT AN ANTI-ANTI-DEMOCRATIC MOVE, BUT THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT SAYS IT DOESN'T CONTROL THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

A TURKISH JOURNALIST AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR IS WITH US.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THESE PROTESTS AND THIS MOVEMENT, FOLLOWING THE JAILING OF THE VERY POPULAR MAYOR JUST BEFORE ELECTIONS THERE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK GIVES IT THE CONTINUED STRENGTH TO KEEP GOING SO MANY WEEKS LATER, ESPECIALLY KNOWING THE RISKS AND THE PUSH-BACK FROM THE GOVERNMENT?

>> WELL, AFTER 20 YEARS, PEOPLE ARE FED UP, AND THEY ARE BROUGHT TOGETHER BY THE ARREST, PERHAPS, BUT THERE ARE MANY FACTORS THAT IS WORKING INTO THESE DEMONSTRATIONS.

SO, I THINK GENIE IS OUT OF THE BOTTLE, THE DIE IS CAST, SO --THIS IS THE MOMENT WHERE THERE IS NO RETURN, AND I THINK THIS IS --WE'RE GOING TO SEE IF TURKEY, A COUNTRY THAT HAS LOST ITS DEMOCRACY TO A DICTATOR, WHETHER THIS COUNTRY IS ABLE TO TAKE BACK ITS DEMOCRACY.

>> WAS THE ARREST OF THE MAYOR A TRIGGER FOR THIS?

OR WAS --WAS THIS MOVEMENT INEVITABLE IN YOUR VIEW?

>> IT WAS INEVITABLE, BUT THEN, HE WAS NOT ONLY ISTANBUL'S MAYOR, HE'S A LARGER POLITICAL FIGURE.

AND HE WAS ONLY --HE WAS THE ONLY POLITICAL RIVAL, SO TO SPEAK, AGAINST ERDOGAN, AND HIS OPINION POLLS WAS SO IN FAVOR OF HIM, SO SIMPLY, ERDOGAN IMPRISONED HIS POLITICAL RIVAL AND, YES, THIS MIGHT BE THE GALVANIZING FACTOR, BUT THEN UNDERNEATH, THE DEMONSTRATIONS ARE FOR ASKING DEMOCRACY , AND THEIR MAIN DEMAND IS DIGNITY AND FREEDOM.

SO , YES, HE IS THE REASON, BUT IT'S ACCUMULATION OF THINGS IN THE LAST 20 YEARS UNDER ERDOGAN'S REGIME.

>> AND THE LAST 20 YEARS, I MEAN, NOW YOU HAVE A SYSTEM WHERE 90% OF THE MEDIA IS GOVERNMENT-CONTROLLED.

I KNOW YOU AND MANY OTHERS HAVE COMPARED THIS TO THE PROTEST MOVEMENT IN 2013.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE SIMILARITIES HERE, AND WHAT IF ANY LESSONS HAVE BEEN LEARNED THAT ORGANIZERS OF THIS MOVEMENT CAN TAKE WITH THEM?

>> BIANNA, THE MAIN DIFFERENCE IS THAT THIS TIME, PEOPLE WENT ONTO THE STREETS, KNOWING THE RISKS.

THERE WAS A PROTEST BAN ALREADY, SO, THEY WENT ON THE STREETS AGAINST THE BAN.

THEY KNEW THAT THEY WERE GOING TO MEET WITH MASSIVE POLICE VIOLENCE, WHICH HAPPENED, AND THE --THE OTHER IFFERENCE IS, OF COURSE, THIS IS ANOTHER WORLD NOW.

IN 2013, THERE WAS MORE DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD, AND THERE WASN'T TRUMP IN AMERICA OR SEVERAL OTHER LEADERS, SIMILAR LEADERS IN --IN EUROPE, SO THE WORLD WAS WATCHING TURKEY IN A FAVORABLE WAY DURING THE 2013 UPRISING.

THIS TIME, TURKEY'S DIFFERENT.

THERE'S A LOT OF OPPRESSION, MUCH MORE OPPRESSION THAN 2013, AND THE WORLD IS DIFFERENT, IT IS MORE SILENT WHEN IT COMES TO MASSES DEMANDING DEMOCRACY.

THAT IS A VERY, VERY DARK AND UNFORTUNATE SILENCE, OF COURSE.

>> YEAH, I WAS GOING TO ASK HOW MUCH OF A HINDRANCE THAT IS, THE SILENCE FROM THE REST OF THE DEMOCRATIC WORLD, STARTING WITH THE UNITED STATES , BUT ALSO TO EU NEIGHBORS, AS WELL.

I INTERVIEWED THE CHAIRMAN OF THE CHP PARTY, AND HE VOICED HIS FRUSTRATION WITH KEIR STARMER'S SORT OF MUTED CONDEMNATION OF THE ARREST.

WE SAW THE SECRETARY OF STATE, MARCO RUBIO, ALSO SAY HE'S GOING TO SEEK ANSWERS, BUT THEN ALSO MET WITH HIS COUNTERPART, AND STEVE WITKOFF, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ENVOY, SAID IN AN INTERVIEW, DIDN'T EVEN MENTION THESE PROTESTS, BUT SUGGESTED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ERDOGAN HAD A VERY STRONG AND PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION, AND THAT SOMETHING MORE WAS GOING TO COME OUT OF THAT CONVERSATION, WE HAVE YET TO HEAR WHAT THAT IS, BUT --HOW MUCH OF A SETBACK IS THAT FOR THE MOVEMENT?

>> WELL, TURKISH PEOPLE AND KURDISH PEOPLE, ALL THE PEOPLE IN TURKEY WHO ARE JOINING THESE PROTESTS, OF COURSE THEY KNOW THEY'RE ALONE IN THIS, AND I THINK THEY TOOK THAT RISK, AS WELL.

BUT THEN, FOR THE WORLD, IT'S A SAD SITUATION, BECAUSE ALL THESE WESTERN COUNTRIES, THEY DO THINK THAT --I THINK THEY STILL THINK THAT THIS LOSS OF DEMOCRACY WILL BE LIMITED, CONFINED IN CRAZY COUNTRIES LIKE TURKEY AND NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO THEM, EVEN THOUGH THERE IS THIS MASSIVE RISE OF FAR RIGHT ALL OVER EUROPE.

SO --AND THEY ARE DOING THESE REAL POLITIC NEGOTIATIONS WITH TURKEY, BECAUSE THERE IS, YOU KNOW, RUSSIAN THREAT AND EUROPE IS LOOKING FOR ARMS, ARMAMENT, AND TURKEY, WITH ITS SECOND-LARGEST NATO ARMY, SEEMS TO BE THE NATURAL CANDIDATE FOR THAT.

AND I THINK TRUMP IN AMERICA HAS ENCOURAGED MANY LEADERS LIKE ERDOGAN TO DO WHAT THEY DO AND KEEP DOING IT WITHOUT ANY SHAME.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE THAT YOU WERE DUE TO SPEAK AT PRINCETON UNIVERSITY, I LEAVE, LAST WEEK, AND CHOSE NOT TO COME.

DO YOU MIND SHARING WITH US WHY?

>> WELL, IT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THIS BORDER TERROR, I SHOULD CALL, THE, YOU KNOW, RANDOM CHECKS AND, YOU KNOW, WE HEARD THAT MANY PEOPLE, SEVERAL PEOPLE, NOT MANY, BUT SEVERAL PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TAKEN INTO DETENTION BECAUSE OF THEIR CRITICISM OF TRUMP AND THEIR STANCE ABOUT GAZA.

SO, I WAS NATURALLY CONCERNED THAT SOMETHING COULD HAPPEN TO ME, BECAUSE THE RANDOMNESS OF IT, I RECOGNIZE FROM COUNTRY, FROM MY COUNTRY, TURKEY, ONE, IN THE SECOND, WHICH WAS EVEN MORE TERRIFYING, IS THAT THERE IS NO RIGHT TO LAWYER IN THAT AREA, BORDER AREA, SO, I THOUGHT I SHOULDN'T GO, BUT THEN, OF COURSE, I'M ALSO WAITING FOR AMERICANS TO CHANGE THIS THROUGH THE DEMONSTRATIONS YOU JUST BROADCASTED.

>> ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THAT?

I MEAN, WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU SAW THE PROTESTS HERE IN THE STATES OVER THE WEEKEND?

BECAUSE AS WE NOTE, IT'S OVER A MYRIAD OF ISSUES, RIGHT?

THIS HAS BEEN A SHORT ADMINISTRATION THUS FAR, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF POLICIES SET FORWARD BY THIS ADMINISTRATION, SO, PEOPLE TOOK TO THE STREETS WITH THEIR OWN FRUSTRATIONS, WHETHER IT'S ABOUT IMMIGRATION, WHETHER IT'S ABOUT CONCERNS ABOUT THEIR OWN SOCIAL SECURITY, FINANCIAL STATUS, YOU NAME IT.

>> YEAH.

WELL, IT'S A GOOD THING, BECAUSE AMERICA IS NOT AS POLITICAL AS TURKEY, IT'S NEVER BEEN.

CITIZENS ARE AFRAID OF POLITICS, AND ALSO, SOMEHOW HONORABLE TO THINK TO SAY, I AM A --I HATE POLITICS AND SO ON.

I THINK UNITED STATES, AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE FINALLY REALIZING THAT BEING APOLITICAL IS NOT AN OPTION.

OR SAYING I HATE POLITICS IS ONLY BAD POLITICS --IT IS POLITICS, THOUGH.

I THINK WHEN TRUMP POLICIES ARE TOUCHING THEM EVERY DAY, THEY ARE COMING TO THEIR SENSES AND THEY ARE REALIZING THAT AS CITIZENS, THEY ARE POLITICAL SUBJECTS.

I AM LONGING FOR THESE PROTESTS, BECAUSE THIS IS WHY I WROTE "HOW TO LOSE A COUNTRY. "

IT WASN'T ONLY TO, YOU KNOW, TELL WHAT'S GOING TO COME TO UNITED STATES, BUT IT WAS ALSO TO SHOW THE COMMON PATTERNS, SO, BY KNOWING THESE COMMON PATTERNS, WE CAN BUILD A GLOBAL SOLIDARITY.

AND I SEE THE COMMON STRAGSS IN THE UNITED STATES AS PART OF A GLOBAL PLAY, IN TURKEY, IN OTHER PLACES, AS WELL, AGAINST THE RISE OF FASCISM, SO, I AM NOT OPTIMISTIC, I DON'T BELIEVE IN THE OPTIMISM, PESSIMISM THING, BUT I DO THINK THESE KIND OF DEMONSTRATIONS ARE REFRESHING OUR FAITH IN OURSELVES, IN OTHER HUMANS, IN TERMS OF PROTECTING OUR DIGNITY, WHEN IT'S UNDER ATTACK.

>> YOU MENTIONED "HOW TO LOSE A COUNTRY. "

YOU ACTUALLY DETAIL THE SEVEN STEPS THAT LEAD A COUNTRY FROM DEMOCRACY TO CISM.

>> YOU WROTE FOR THE GUARDIAN THAT YOUNG PEOPLE, IT'S YOUNG PEOPLE, THAT ARE LEADING THESE PROTESTS, I WANT TO READ FROM WHAT YOU WROED.

TE.

PARALYZED GIANTS UNABLE TO KEEP UP WITH THE AGILE SI OF THE NEW FAR RIGHT.

WHAT IS OCCURRING IN TURKEY RIGHT NOW IS YOUTHFUL ENERGY SCHOOLING AND SHOWING AROUND THE SHIP WRECK, BREATHING LIFE INTO IT BY TRANSFORMING THE WRECK INTO A REEF.

HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THAT?

>> THAT IS VERY SIGNIFICANT, BECAUSE NOW YOU ARE EXPERIENCING IN THE UNITED STATES, SPONTANEOUS, MORE, IN A NONPOLITICAL CITIZENS COMING OUT, THERE IS NO POLITICAL PARTY LEADING IT AND SO ON.

THESE SPONTANEOUS, OCCUPY-LIKE MOVEMENTS, LET'S SAY, THAT ARE NOT ACCOMMODATED BY POLITICAL PARTIES, THEY ARE INCREDIBLY INSPIRING, THEY ARE KEEPING OUR HUMANITY, HUMANITY'S DIGNITY GOING, SO ON.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME IN SEVERAL DECADES THAT WE ARE SEEING A POLITICAL PARTY, SOCIAL DEMOCRATS, THE MAIN PPOSITION PARTY, IS TRYING TO HOST THE STREET ACTION, THE STREET -- THE POLITICAL MOVEMENT IN THE STREET.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME, AND WE ARE GOING TO SEE HOW IT WILL RESULT IN TERMS OF CHANGING THE COURSE OF HISTORY, CHANGING THE COURSE OF POLITICS.

SO --THIS IS ONE OF THE IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN TURKEY, AND I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SHOW, TURKISH PEOPLE, WE'RE GOING TO SHOW THE WORLD THAT THIS KIND OF POLITICAL EXPERIMENT CAN ACTUALLY --YOU KNOW, CHANGE THE THINGS.

>> WELL, WE WILL BE WATCHING, THAT IS FOR SURE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE TIME.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

> >> WELL, NOW, IS IT THE END OF WORK AS WE KNOW IT?

FOR A GROWING NUMBER OF CREATIVES IN THEIR 40s AND 50s, THE RISE OF SOCIAL MEDIA AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS UPENDING THEIR CAREERS.

"NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER STEVEN KURUTZ WHO GOT HIS START AT A MAGAZINE, HAS WITNESSED MANY IN THE, QUOTE, UNHAPPY MIDDLE EXPERIENCE THIS TOUGH CHALLENGE.

AND HE SPEAKS TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THEIR STRUGGLES.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

STEVEN KURUTZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU RECENTLY WROTE A PIECE THAT I KNOW GOT A LOT OF ATTENTION.

PARKED A LOT OF CONVERSATION, IT WAS ABOUT HOW GEN X CREATIVES, PEOPLE WHO CAME OF AGE IN THE ANALOG ERA, PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE FULLY LAUNCHED IN THEIR CAREERS, ARE BASICALLY SEEING THEIR CAREERS DISAPPEAR.

I'M THINKING ABOUT ED ADVERTISING, MEDIA, DESIGN, PHOTOGRAPHY, THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

AND JUST THE WHOLE WORLD HAS CHANGED.

SO, WHAT GAVE YOU THE IDEA?

>> I'M TALKING ABOUT A CERTAIN SLICE OF GEN X, NOT DOCTORS AND BANKERS AND CONSTRUCTION WORKERS, I'M TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO WENT INTO MEDIA AND IMAGE-MAKING IN THE 1990s, AND, YOU KNOW, THESE PEOPLE AND MYSELF, THEY ARE NOW IN THEIR 40s AND 50s, I'M GEN X, AS WELL, AND IF YOU ARE MY AGE AND YOU'RE IN ONE OF THESE FIELDS, YOU EITHER KNOW PEOPLE WHO THIS HAS HAPPENED TO, WHERE THEIR JOB HAS BASICALLY BECOME OBSOLETE, OR THEY'RE REALLY STRUGGLING IN THEIR CAREER, OR, YOU KNOW, IT'S HAPPENED TO YOU, OR YOU ARE ONE OF THE LUCKY SURVIVORS AND YOU'RE AFRAID IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU, AND YOU'RE WONDERING HOW LONG YOU CAN HOLD OUT IN ONE OF THESE INDUSTRIES.

AND THERE WAS A QUIET AGONY AND A QUIET GRIEF OUT THERE.

PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEIR FINANCES OR THE FACT THAT THEIR CAREER ISN'T GOING WELL, SO, I WANTED TO PURSUE THAT AND WRITE ABOUT IT IN THE STORY.

>> IS THIS SOMETHING THAT MADE YOU UNDERSTAND --WHAT MADE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THIS ISN'T JUST A SMALL THING?

>> IT WAS NOT A PIECE OF DATA.

IT WAS ANECDOTAL, BUT IT WAS SO OVERWHELMING.

I MEAN, I KNEW A DOZEN OR MORE PEOPLE IN THIS SITUATION, NOT JUST MAGAZINE JOURNALISTS, WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE WORLD I COME FROM, BUT PHOTOGRAPHERS AND GRAPHIC DESIGNERS AND AD PEOPLE, AND EVERYONE I KNEW KNEW PEOPLE IN THIS SITUATION, AND JUST TALKING TO PEOPLE, YOU COULD SEE, PEOPLE WERE STRUGGLING AND THESE INDUSTRIES --I MEAN, THE OTHER THING IS, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW, I STARTED IN MAGAZINES, AT "TIME INC" IN 1999, SO, I HAVE LIVED THIS.

I'VE SEEN WHAT'S HAPPENED AND SO HAVING THAT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, THE PIECE KIND OF GREW OUT OF THAT.

>> I'M THINKING ABOUT ALL THESE GREAT LEGACY PRINT MAGAZINES THAT WOULD COME OUT REGULARLY, WITH BEAUTIFUL PHOTOGRAPHY.

SO, DO YOU HAVE ANY NUMBERS TO SORT OF GIVE US THE SCOPE OF IT BEFORE YOU GET INTO SOME OF THE INDIVIDUAL STORIES?

>> WELL, I --I DON'T HAVE NUMBERS, BUTLY I WILL TALK ABOUT THAT ABUNDANCE.

WHAT YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT, A LOT OF MAGAZINES ARE GONE.

THE MAGAZINES THAT REMAIN ARE --ARE --HAVE SKELETAL STAFFS.

SO, ALL THE COPY EDITORS AND THE FACT-CHECKERS AND THE LAYERS OF EDITING AND THE STAFF WRITERS AT THOSE MAGAZINES, YOU KNOW, THOSE MAGAZINES ARE RUNNING LEAN AND MEAN, IF THEY EXIST NOW.

AND THE SAME THING WITH STREAMERS.

YES, THERE'S AN ABUNDANCE OF SHOWS, BUT YOU KNOW, THE --A NETFLIX DOES NOT ORDER AS MANY EPISODES PER SEASON AS THE NETWORKS DID IN THE '90s AND THE DAYS OF "ER" AND "FRIENDS" AND SHOWS TEND TO, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T LAST AS LONG.

SO, YOU HAVE "THE WHITE LOTUS" WHICH CAPTURES EVERYBODY'S ATTENTION, BUT IT'S HAD THREE SEASONS, OVER THE COURSE OF SEVERAL YEARS.

SO, ALL THE WRITING STAFF, THE CREWS ON THOSE SHOWS, YOU KNOW, ADVERTISING HAS SWITCHED OVER TO INFLUENCER MARKETING, AND SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCERS.

AND SO, YOU DON'T NEED THE PROP STYLISTS AND THE FASHION STYLISTS AND THE HAIR AND MAKEUP PERSON AND THE PHOTOGRAPHER, YOU KNOW, AND THE PHOTOGRAPHER'S ASSISTANT.

ALL THOSE JOBS ARE GONE.

AND THOSE WERE PEOPLE'S LIVELIHOODS.

>> AND THEN YOU THINK ABOUT A. I. , I MEAN, YOU HAVE ONE DATA POINT IN YOUR PIECE, YOU SAY THAT BY 2030, THE U. S. IS EXPECTED TO LOSE SOME 32,000 AD AGENCY JOBS TO A. I.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IT'S 7.

5% OF THE CURRENT WORK FORCE.

AND ALREADY ADVERTISING AGENCIES HAVE MERGED AND THE INDUSTRY HAS CONTRACTED AND A. I.

IS COMING.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU THINK ABOUT, WELL, IF YOU ARE IN YOUR 40s AND 50s, CAN YOU RETRAIN, BUT LET'S TAKE AN EXAMPLE, LET'S SAY YOU'RE A SOUND EDITOR FOR FILM AND TV, AND THEN A. I.

COMES AND THERE'S AN A. I.

PROGRAM THAT DOES THAT JOB.

THERE'S NO AMOUNT OF -- OF TRAINING THAT YOU CAN GET TO KEEP YOUR JOB, A. I.

IS NOW GOING TO DO THAT JOB.

AND THAT A. I.

IS GOING TO COME FOR COPY EDITING AND FACT-CHECKING AND COPYWRITING AT AD AGENCIES.

LET'S SAY YOU'RE A GRAPHIC DESIGNER AND YOU'VE HAD A ROBUST CAREER, YOU SPENT 15, 20 YEARS LEARNING YOUR CRAFT, WELL, GRAPHIC DESIGN CAN GET OUTSOURCED TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES, WHERE THE WORKERS WILL DO IT FOR MUCH LESS AND THE QUALITY'S GOOD, SO, YOU'VE BEEN DEALING WITH THAT, AND NOW HERE COMES A. I.

AND A. I.

WILL DO GRAPHIC DESIGN AND IF I'M THE COMPANY, THE BRAND OR THE BUSINESS, I'LL JUST USE THE A. I.

SOFTWARE AND WON'T HIRE THE GRAPHIC DESIGNER, AND SO, THEN WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU'RE 55 YEARS OLD, AND YOU'RE A GRAPHIC DESIGNER?

>> THE CHIEF ECONOMIST OF GLASSDOOR FOUND THAT GEN X WORKERS NOW ACCOUNT FOR 25% OF ALL UNEMPLOYED WORKERS AND THEY'RE TAKING LONGER TO FIND NEW JOBS.

YOU WERE SAYING THAT PART OF THE ISSUE FOR GEN X IN PARTICULAR IS WHAT YOU CALL CURSED TIMING.

WILL YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT?

WHAT WAS THE CURSE OF THEIR TIMING?

>> YES, I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THAT UP.

YOU KNOW, EVERY GENERATION HAS ITS BURDENS, AND IF YOU HAVE A 40-YEAR CAREER, THERE'S GOING TO BE TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGE IN YOUR CAREER.

BUT YOU THOUGH, LET'S LOOK AT THE BABY BOOMERS, FOR EXAMPLE.

THEY'RE NOW IN THEIR 60s AND 0 70s.

THE MORE YEARS OF THEIR CAREER WERE SPENT IN THE BOOM TIMES.

AND THAT MEANT THEY COULD HAVE HIGHER SALARIES AND THAT MEANT THAT THEY MAYBE, YOU KNOW, IF THEY WERE GOOD WITH THEIR MONEY, THEY HAD THE POSSIBILITY TO SOCK AWAY MONEY FOR RETIREMENT AND BUY A HOUSE .

AND THEN, LET'S SAY YOU'RE AGAIN Z AND MILLENNIALS.

YOU'VE SEEN THIS COMING.

MAYBE YOU DIDN'T GET INTO ADVERTISING, YOU DIDN'T BECOME A FREELANCE PHOTOGRAPHER, BECAUSE YOU SAW WHAT WAS HAPPENING BY THE TIME YOU GOT OUT OF SCHOOL.

AND YOU'RE DIGITALLY NATIVE.

AND SO, YOU UNDERSTAND , YOU KNOW, INSTAGRAM AND DIGITAL TECHNOLOGY AND TIKTOK, AND MAYBE YOU'RE NOT AFRAID OF A. I.

BUT IF YOU'RE GEN X, AND YOU'RE IN YOUR 40s AND 50s, YOU ARE IN THE UNHAPPY MIDDLE, YOU KNOW?

YOU HAD 10 TO 15 YEARS OF A CAREER BEFORE THINGS STARTED TO GET SHAKY.

YOU ARE TEN YEARS AWAY FROM RETIREMENT.

YOU KNOW, AND LET'S ALSO, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE DEALING WITH CHILDREN, MAYBE TRYING TO PAY FOR COLLEGE EDUCATION, YOU'VE GOT A MORTGAGE, MAYBE YOU'RE DEALING WITH ELDER CARE .

AND LET'S ALSO NOT FORGET THAT A LOT OF THESE JOBS, THEY WERE FUN, THEY WERE REALLY INTERESTING AND CREATIVE, BUT THEY WEREN'T NECESSARILY HIGHLY COMPENSATED, YOU KNOW?

MY FIRST JOB WHEN I GOT INTO MAGAZINES AS AN EDITORIAL ASSISTANT, I THINK I MADE $27,000?

YOU KNOW, SO THERE WASN'T AN OPPORTUNITY TO PUT AWAY MONEY.

YOU WERE COMPENSATED IN OTHER WAYS, BY GETTING TO BE ARTISTIC AND CREATIVE AND GOING TO INTERESTING PARTIES AND FEELING LIKE YOU WERE PART OF THE CULTURE.

SO, THAT PART HAS GONE AWAY.

AND ALSO, THE FINANCIAL PART HAS GONE AWAY, AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF GRIEF FOR PEOPLE, AND GRIEVING OVER THE CAREERS THAT THEY HAD IN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT --I MEAN, REALLY WHY I WANTED TO WRITE THE PIECE AND TALK TO THESE PEOPLE IS FIGURE OUT, WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN THIS HAPPENS TO YOU?

AND WHAT ARE THESE GEN X- ERS DOING NEXT.

>> CAN YOU TELL ME ONE OR TWO STORIES OF THE PEOPLE YOU INTERVIEWED FOR THE PIECE?

>> YEAH, YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I TALKED TO A FORMER MAGAZINE EDITOR, HE HAD STARTED A MAGAZINE IN THE EARLY 2000s, ENDED UP AT A DREAM JOB, REALLY, AT "SPIN MAGAZINE" AS AN EDITOR AND WRITER, AND THROUGH HIS TIME, THINGS JUST KEPT GETTING WORSE AND WORSE.

THE CIRCULATION FELL, THE AD PAGES FELL, FINALLY, THE MAGAZINE WENT TO , YOU KNOW, DIGITAL AND CEASED THE PRINT PUBLICATION, SO, HIM AND HIS WIFE, THEY HAD TWO CHILDREN , THEY LIVE IN A TINY NEW YORK APARTMENT, SHE ALSO WORKED IN MEDIA.

AND THEY LOOKED AT EACH OTHER, THOUGHT, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO?

THEY ENDED UP MOVING TO CALIFORNIA, HE TOOK AN EDITORIAL JOB AT A BIG TECH COMPANY, AND THAT JOB GAVE HIM THE STABILITY TO REALLY THINK ABOUT THE NEXT MOVE, AND HE WENT BACK TO SCHOOL AND HE GOT HIS MASTERS DEGREE IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY AND NOW HE'S A THERAPIST, WORKING TOWARDS HIS STATE LICENSE TO PRACTICE THERAPY.

SO, HE MADE THAT CAREER TRANSITION.

I SPOKE TO A WOMAN WHO WAS A PROP STYLIST FOR MANY, MANY YEARS FOR MAGAZINES AND THEN FOR, YOU KNOW, ON AD SHOOTS, AND SHE JUST TOOK A COURSE TO BE A POSTPARTUM DULA.

I THINK SOME OF THE SOFT SKILL JOBS, YOU KNOW, THERAPY, WHERE IT'S ANALYTICAL, YOU KNOW, BEING, YOU KNOW, RUNNING A BUSINESS, YOU KNOW, THE WOMAN WHO IS BECOMING A POSTPARTUM DOULA, THE KIND OF JOB --THE ANALYTICAL SKILLS AND THE INTERVIEWING AND TALKING TO PEOPLE AND LISTENING THAT COMES OUT OF , YOU KNOW, WORKING IN MEDIA, I THINK, CAN TRANSLATE TO A LOT OF OTHER CAREERS.

>> I KNOW THAT YOU SPOKE OF A SORT OF SENSE OF GRIEF THAT PEOPLE HAVE, BUT THESE SOUND LIKE SUCCESS STORIES TO ME.

THERAPIST, COUNSELORS, DOULAS, THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO SOCIETY.

SO, IS THAT REALLY TERRIBLE?

>> NO, THAT'S NOT TERRIBLE AT ALL.

THE GUY WHO STARTED THE STORE, THE SURF STORE, THE SURF BRAND, I THINK HE'S VERY HAPPY HE MADE THE DECISION.

THE GUY WHO WORKED AT A ROCK MAGAZINE AND BECAME A THERAPIST, A PART OF HIM IS STILL KIND OF, YOU KNOW, DEALING WITH , YOU KNOW, THIS TRANSITION.

THESE WERE JOBS THAT FOR BETTER OR WORSE, I THINK, BECAME PEOPLE'S IDENTITY.

HE WAS THE ROCK GUY AT "SPIN MAGAZINE," YOU KNOW, OR, YOU KNOW, THE --SOMEONE ELSE WAS THE COOL FREELANCE PHOTOGRAPHER WHO GOT TO FLY ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND THESE WE DYNAMIC JOBS, THEY WERE REALLY INTERESTING JOBS.

AND EVEN IF YOU FIND SOMETHING ELSE GAINFULLY, YOU KNOW, IT'S SORT OF --AFTER DOING SOMETHING FOR 25 OR 30 YEARS, IT'S DIFFICULT.

I TALKED TO SOMEBODY WHO ROSE TO BECOME AN EDITOR IN CHIEF OF A MAGAZINE, AND HE READ THE WRITING ON THE WALL AND HE JUMPED TO SOFTWARE SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

AND HE SAID TO ME, I STILL LOOK ACROSS THE FENCE AT MY COLLEAGUES AT MAGAZINES AND I STILL LOOK AT JOB OPENINGS AT MAGAZINES, BECAUSE IN MY HEART OF HEARTS, THAT'S WHERE I WOULD RATHER BE.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE TOOK THE JOB IN SOFTWARE BECAUSE HE NEEDED TO PAY THE BILLS.

THE WOMAN WHO TOOK THE DOULA COURSE, LIKE, SHE'S JUST NOW STARTING THIS PROCESS, AND IT'S A LONG PROCESS, SHE TOOK THE COURSE, BUT THERE'S A CERTIFICATION PROCESS, AND SEVERAL MORE COURSES, AND ALSO, SHE'S TRYING TO RAISE A CHILD AND LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY , AND WHERE DO YOU HAVE THE RESOURCES TO JUST TAKE TIME OFF TO GO BACK AND COMPLETELY DO A DIFFERENT CAREER?

>> WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE POINTS THAT YOU MADE IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THEIR KIND OF 40s, THAT'S WHERE THE FAMILY RESPONSIBILITIES REALLY START TO KIND OF KICK IN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IT IS DIFFICULT.

AND IT'S HARD TO MAKE THAT PIVOT.

IT'S HARD TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL FULL-TIME, IF YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL FULL-TIME.

I MEAN, I DON'T --I SAID THIS, YOU KNOW, WE GOT OVER 1,000 COMMENTS FOR THIS STORY.

IT BECAME THE KIND OF STORY THAT I THINK IT ALLOWED PEOPLE WHO WERE THINKING THESE THINGS, ON MAYBE HAVING PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS, TO HAVE A MORE PUBLIC CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS.

AND I RESPONDED IN THE COMMENTS THAT, I DON'T WANT THIS PIECE TO BE WOE IS GEN X, YOU KNOW?

I MEAN, IT'S LIKE --OR GEN X IS CURSED, I MEAN, GEN X IS RESILIENT.

AND GEN X IS INDEPENDENT.

I MEAN, THE GEN X-ERS ARE THE LATCHKEY KIDS, AND THEY'RE VERY RESILIENT, AND THEY'VE LIVED THROUGH RECESSIONS BEFORE, AND I THINK THEY WILL FIGURE IT OUT.

THESE CREATIVES WILL FIGURE IT OUT.

IT'S JUST THAT THIS IS THAT PERIOD OF TIME WHERE THE ROAD --THEY'VE COME TO THE END OF THE ROAD IN THEIR OLD CAREERS, I THINK, FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND SO, THEY ARE IN THAT PROCESS NOW OF THINKING, WHAT IS NEXT?

>> DOES THIS SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE PLACE OF WORK IN AMERICA, THAT WE ARE VERY INVESTED IN WORK, THE WORK THAT WE DO , AND SOME --IS IT THAT, LIKE, THE WORK THAT WE DO BECOMES WHO WE ARE?

AND I DO WONDER IF THAT'S SOMETHING HAVING TO DO WITH THESE PROFESSIONS THAT PEOPLE CHOSE, AS OPPOSED TO THINGS THAT THEY JUST HAD TO DO, AND SO, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

I'M JUST WONDERING IF SOME OF THAT SENSE OF GRIEF COMES FROM THE FACT THAT THIS IS A GENERATION THAT HAD THE CHOICE OF WHAT TO DO.

>> YES.

CERTAINLY, FOR THE FOLKS THAT I'M WRITING ABOUT, YES.

YOU KNOW --AND --YEAH, AND IT WAS A CHOICE TO GO INTO THESE CAREERS, THESE CREATIVE CAREERS, AND YOU'RE RIGHT, I THINK THEY -- IN SOME CASES, PEOPLE PROBABLY DID OVERIDENTIFY, YOU KNOW?

YOU WEREN'T BECOMING A FREELANCE PHOTOGRAPHER OR COPY EDITOR OR SOMETHING ELSE, YOU KNOW, OR A SOUND, YOU KNOW, EDITOR OR AUDIO ENGINEER, TO GET RICH.

THESE WERE KIND OF PASSION JOBS IN A WAY, AND , YOU KNOW, IT WAS EXCITING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A LIVING AT THEM, TO GO AROUND AND SAY THAT YOU WORKED IN A RECORDING STUDIO AND GOT TO WORK WITH BANDS, OR, YOU KNOW, YOU WROTE, YOU KNOW, AT A MAGAZINE FOR A LIVING, THAT WAS A COOL THING.

AND, YES, I THINK THAT THE GRIEF COMES FROM MAYBE OVERIDENTIFYING, AND I ALSO THINK --YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THIS NECESSARILY WHEN I WAS REPORTING, BUT READING THROUGH THE THOUSAND OR MORE COMMENTS, I THINK THE CREATIVE GEN X-ERS THAT I'M WRITING ABOUT HERE ARE REALLY JUST SORT OF THE TIP OF THIS, AND WITH A. I.

COMING, YOU KNOW, IN A COUPLE YEARS, I MAY BE ABLE TO WRITE THE SAME KIND OF PIECE ABOUT LAWYERS OR ACADEMICS OR EVEN HEALTH CARE, I MEAN, A. I. , YOU KNOW, IF THE TECHNOLOGY LIVES UP TO THE PROMISES, AND IT'S ALREADY STARTING TO REPLACE A LOT OF JOBS, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THINK , I WENT INTO A SEEMINGLY STABLE JOB, YOU KNOW, THINKING I WOULD HAVE A CAREER FOR LIFE IN THIS PROFESSION, AND I'M FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS AWAY FROM RETIREMENT, AND WHAT AM I GOING TO DO?

AND SO, THERE'S A LOT OF ECONOMIC INSECURITY OUT THERE AND A LOT OF SENSE OF, WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF WORK?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

YOU KNOW, IS A. I.

COMING TO HELP ME IN MY JOB, OR IS IT COMING TO TAKE AWAY MY JOB, WHETHER YOU WORK ON WALL STREET OR, YOU KNOW, AT A WHITE SHOE LAW FIRM.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I --I THINK THIS TAPPED INTO THAT, ALBEIT IN TALKING ABOUT A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE.

>> WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HERE MAKES ME THINK, HMM, I WONDER HOW THIS IS FOG TO PLAY OUT IN OUR POLITICS, BECAUSE WE TEND TO THINK OF, YOU KNOW, CREATIVES, IT'S A STEREOTYPE, OKAY, AS MORE ON THE PROGRESSIVE SIDE, RIGHT?

I DO WONDER WHETHER , IF THERE'S THIS MASSIVE DISRUPTION THAT LEADS TO ALL THESE FEELINGS, AS WELL AS CHANGED ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES, IS GOING TO EFFECT OUR POLITICS?

>> I MEAN, I'M FROM THE RUST BELT, I'M FROM A SMALL INDUSTRIAL TOWN IN PENNSYLVANIA, AND SO, I LIVED THROUGH THE DISPLACEMENT OF BLUE COLLAR WORKERS, AND THOSE FACTORY JOBS.

AND WE'RE SEEING THE KIND OF --THE TURMOIL THAT THAT --THAT THAT HAS CAUSED IN THE COUNTRY, SOCIOECONOMICALLY, POLITICALLY, IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, A PERSON'S IDENTITY AND WORTH.

IT'S REALLY ALREADY TOUGH FOR CREATIVE WORKERS.

THERE'S BEEN WORKS TEN YEARS AGO, THE DEATH OF THE CREATIVE CLASS.

AND IT'S COMING FOR WHITE COLLAR PROFESSIONALS, AND HOW THEY HANDLE THAT, AND HOW OUR SOCIETY HANDLES THAT, REMAINS TO BE SEEN, BUT I THINK IT'S A BIT OF A FREE FOR ALL.

I DON'T SEE GUARDRAILS IN PLACE TO PROTECT THOSE JOBS, JUST LIKE THERE REALLY WEREN'T GUARDRAILS PUT IN PLACE TO PROTECT THE MANUFACTURING JOBS.

THEY JUST WENT OVERSEAS, AND THE COMMUNITIES HAD TO DEAL WITH IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE'LL SEE IF THERE ARE GUARDRAILS PUT IN PLACE ABOUT A. I.

AND THE COMING DISPLACEMENT IN THE WORK FORCE.

>> STEVEN KURUTZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> AND FINALLY, A COUPLE OF TORTOISES AT THE PHILADELPHIA ZOO HAVE BECOME FIRST- TIME PARENTS.

AT NEARLY 100 YEARS OLD.

THE BIRTH OF THE FOUR HATCHLINGS WAS ALSO A FIRST IN THE ZOO'S 150-YEAR HISTORY.

AND GREAT NEWS FOR THE EFFORTS TO SAVE THE CRITICALLY ENDANGERED SPECIES.

THE FEMALE PARENT NAMED MOMMY ARRIVED AT THE ZOO BACK IN 1932, AND IS THOUGHT TO BE THE OLDEST KNOWN FIRST- TIME MOTHER OF HER SPECIES.

MAYBE SLOW AND STEADY DOES WIN THE RACE AFTER ALL.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

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THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY," AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.