>>> IT IS GRADUATION SEASON IN THE UNITED STATES.

COLLEGE STUDENTS ACROSS THE NATION CELEBRATE THIS BIG MILESTONE, THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN UNIVERSITIES AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE TENSOR THAN EVER.

MITCH DANIELS IS PRESIDENT EMERITUS OF PURDUE UNIVERSITY AND THE FORMER GOVERNOR OF INDIANA.

HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON THAT HIGHER EDUCATION NEEDS URGENT REFORM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

MITCH DANIELS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> YOU HAD A PIECE IN THE WASHINGTON POST THAT UNIVERSITIES TRUMP'S ATTACKS.

HOW ABOUT DOING SOME ATONING TOO.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE ATONING?

>> I THINK THE DAMAGE HIGHER EDUCATION HAS SUFFERED IN TERMS OF PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IS LARGELY SELF-INFLICTED, AND I'M ROOTING FOR THE SECTOR TO REPAIR ITS RELATIONSHIPS WITH STUDENTS, WITH THEIR FAMILIES AND WITH THE PUBLIC AT LARGE.

SO I THINK ACKNOWLEDGING THAT SOME MISTAKES HAVE BEEN MADE OVER TIME IS A GREAT PLACE TO START.

>> LIKE WHAT?

>> THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOO INATTENTIVE TO VALUE.

CHARGED MORE BECAUSE THEY COULD FOR SO VERY LONG.

THEY HAVE BEEN MORE AND MORE LAX ABOUT RIGOR AND STANDARDS AND QUALITY AND THEREFORE THE BASIC EQUATION OF LIFE, WHICH IS QUALITY OVER PRICE I THINK HAS GOTTEN VERY BADLY OUT OF WHACK FOR THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HAS CAUGHT ON TO THAT.

I THINK ALSO WELL REPORTED DIFFICULTIES WITH REGARD TO FREE SPEECH, AND FORCED CONFORMITY OF THOUGHT, LACK OF ANYTHING RESEMBLING DIVERSITY OF VIEWPOINT.

THESE ERRORS, REALLY, HAVE CAUGHT UP TO THE SECTOR.

AS A FAN OF AMERICAN HIGHER EDUCATION.

I BELIEVE IT IS ONE OF THE GREAT ASSETS OUR COUNTRY HAS ALWAYS HAD.

I'M JUST EAGER TO SEE REMEDIAL ACTION.

>> IT IS NOT JUST VERBAL ATTACKS BY PRESIDENT TRUMP AND OTHERS.

IT IS CUTTING FUNDING FOR BASIC RESEARCH.

NOW, I CAN UNDERSTAND SAYING THAT MAYBE NOT FIGHTING ANTI- SEMITISM ENOUGH OR MAYBE SOME WAYS OF DOING AFFIRMATIVE ACTION VIOLATE THE CONSTITUTION.

BUT WHY GO AFTER THE BASIC RESEARCH FOUNDATIONS THAT HAVE MADE FOR 80 YEARS THE UNITED STATES A FOUNT OF INNOVATION?

>> I DON'T AGREE WITH THAT.

WITH MOST OF THOSE CUTS JUST AS I DON'T AGREE WITH THE NOTION OF STRIPPING TAX EXEMPTION FROM EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS THAT WE HAVE.

I WILL SAY THAT I THINK THAT AMERICAN SCIENCE NOT LIMITED TO OUR ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS BUT BASICALLY CENTERED THEIR HAS SOME CORRECTIVE ACTION OF ITS OWN TO TAKE.

WE HAVE HAD THIS I THINK SHAMELESS NOTION OF CONSENSUS.

CONSENSUS IS THE VERY ENEMY OF SCIENCE AND THE IDEA THAT SHOULD BE SILENCED OR SUPPRESSED.

SOME OF THOSE TURNED OUT TO BE RIGHT.

I READ A GREAT BOOK THAT ALBERT EINSTEIN ONE TIME.

ONE OF OUR GREAT BIOGRAPHERS WROTE IT.

EINSTEIN SAYS IN THERE, I ENJOY CONTROVERSY.

HE WANTED PEOPLE TO TRY TO DISPROVE HIS THEORIES.

IF THEY COULD.

AND THAT IS THE WAY SCIENCE PROGRESSES.

SO, SURE.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME SCIENCE THAT REALLY DIDN'T DESERVE THE TAXPAYER SUPPORT AND THERE'S BEEN THE PROBLEMS OF NON- REPLICABILITY.

SOME APPARENTLY SHODDY WORK GOING ON THAT NOBODY CORRECTED.

BUT WE WANT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC TO HAVE GREAT CONFIDENCE IN OUR SCIENCE JUST AS IN THESE INSTITUTIONS YOU ARE ASKING ABOUT.

THEY HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY IN RESTORING THAT CONFIDENCE.

>> BUT 99% OF THE FUNDING IN THE LIFE SCIENCES WAS NOT ABOUT DEBATING OR NOT DEBATING COVID MANDATES.

IT WAS THINGS LIKE USING GENE THERAPY.

I WAS UP THERE IN INDIANA WITH YOU AT ONE POINT.

PEOPLE USING GENE THERAPY IN A CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL THERE.

HOW IS THAT GOING TO HELP THE COUNTRY IF WE MAKE THAT THE TARGET RATHER THAN TRYING TO USE A BULLY PULPIT TO GET UNIVERSITIES TO BE MORE OPEN?

>> I'M AGAINST USING THAT AS THE TARGET.

WE HAVE A BABY AND BATHWATER RISK HERE.

THIS IS MAYBE THE MOST PRECIOUS BABY TO WHICH HIGHER EDUCATION GIVES BIRTH.

SO YES.

I WANT TO SEE UNIVERSITIES REBUILD AS I SAY A RAPPORT AND TRUST WITH THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SPECIFICALLY SO WE DON'T MAKE MISTAKES LIKE THE CANCELLATION OF VITAL RESEARCH ABOUT THE HEALTH SCIENCES OR NATIONAL SECURITY AND OTHER THINGS, WHICH ARE PLAINLY IMPORTANT TO US ALL.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT INDOCTRINATION THAT MAY BE MANY UNIVERSITIES YOU SAY HAVE ENGAGED IN, BUT WE HAVE A PRETTY FREE-MARKET SYSTEM OF UNIVERSITIES.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE ONE, YOU CAN GO TO THE OTHER.

THEY ARE ALL INDEPENDENT.

WHY IS NOT THAT THE BEST WAY TO DO IT TO LET EACH UNIVERSITY DECIDE HOW IT IS GOING TO TEACH AND LET STUDENTS AND PARENTS FIGURE OUT WHICH ONE TO GO TO?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THE STUDENT DOESN'T ALWAYS KNOW ON THE WAY IN WHAT IS AWAITING THEM THERE.

THEY DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW THAT VIRTUALLY 100% OF FACULTY AT MANY INSTITUTIONS HOLD EXACTLY THE SAME VIEWS.

YOU KNOW, THE SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE HOMOGENOUS NATURE IDEOLOGICALLY ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES IS THAT IT STRIKES AT THE VERY HEART OF THE ACADEMIC ENTERPRISE.

AS I WAS SAYING ABOUT SCIENCE AMENDED AGO, KNOWLEDGE ONLY ADVANCES THROUGH THE COLLISION OF IDEAS.

WHEN EVERYBODY THINKS EXACTLY THE SAME THING AND SPOUTS EXACTLY THE SAME LINE, IT IS NOT ADVANCING AND IT IS NOT BEING TRANSMITTED TO THE NEXT GENERATION IN A WAY THAT WILL ENCOURAGE THEM TO BE CRITICAL THINKERS.

>> WHAT DID YOU DO AS PRESIDENT OF PURDUE TO ENCOURAGE MORE CONFRONTATIONAL THINKING OR OPEN THINKING?

>> WE CERTAINLY FROM THE VERY OUTSET ESTABLISHED A FREE- SPEECH CODE THAT MADE IT VERY PLAIN THAT ALL VIEWPOINTS WERE WELCOME AND THAT WE WOULD NOT TOLERATE ANY ATTEMPT TO STIFLE.

VIEWPOINTS AS LONG AS THEY DIDN'T CROSS THE LINE BETWEEN SPEECH AND ACTION.

SO WE HAD TO ENFORCE THAT A TIME OR TWO.

I HAVE TO SAY THAT IT WAS WELL- RECEIVED.

AT LEAST AMONG OUR FACULTY AND OUR STUDENT BODY, THEY QUICKLY, I THINK, AGREED THAT THIS WAS THE ONLY WAY FOR AN ACADEMIC INSTITUTION TO CONDUCT ITSELF.

>> AND WE TALK ABOUT FREE SPEECH AND HELP HER DO UNDER YOU MADE SURE THAT ALL DIFFERENT VIEWPOINTS COULD BE MORE RESPECTFULLY HEARD.

BUT NOW DO YOU SEE OR FEAR THAT IT IS COMING FROM THE OTHER DIRECTION A BIT?

A STUDENT WHO GIVES A PRO-PALESTINIAN GRADUATION SPEECH GETS A DIPLOMA WITHHELD.

OR THERE'S WAYS TO SUPPRESS FREE SPEECH COMING FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

>> BOTH ARE INEXCUSABLE, OF COURSE.

YOU KNOW, AGAIN, I THINK IN SOME OF THE MORE RECENT INCIDENTS, THE LINE BETWEEN SPEECH AND ACTION WAS CROSSED.

IN OTHER WORDS, I THINK IT IS ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE THAT THIS TIME AROUND ONE OF OUR GREAT INSTITUTIONS HAS SUSPENDED AND APPARENTLY INTENDS TO SANCTION STUDENTS WHO TOOK OVER A LIBRARY , DISRUPTED THE STUDY OF OTHERS , DID DAMAGE WHILE THEY WERE THERE.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE TO KEEP THAT DISTINCTION IN MIND.

BUT, NO.

WHEN IT IS SIMPLY THE EXPRESSION OF A POINTED VIEW, OUR COLLEGE CAMPUSES SHOULD BE LABORATORIES.

SHOULD BE TRAINING GROUNDS FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT.

INSTEAD IN TOO MANY CASES THEY HAVE BEEN AS I SAY MONOLITHIC IN THE VIEWPOINTS THAT WERE PERMITTED TO BE EXPRESSED.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT MONOLITHIC VIEWPOINTS, INDOCTRINATION, AND INDEED EVIDENCE THAT MANY UNIVERSITIES THERE IS A CONFORMITY TO POLITICAL THOUGHT ON ONE SIDE OF THE SPECTRUM.

BUT DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE GOVERNMENT'S ROLE TO TRY TO STOP THAT?

AND IS IT A PROBLEM HAVING GOVERNMENT TELL UNIVERSITIES WHAT THEY SHOULD BE TEACHING?

>> I THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES.

I THINK PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES -- WHATEVER THEIR ERRORS PROBABLY SHOULD BE LEFT AS YOU SUGGESTED TO THE MARKETPLACE TO BE DISCIPLINED IF THEY CAN BE.

A PUBLIC UNIVERSITY IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT THING WHEN THE TAXPAYERS' DOLLARS ARE BEING USED TO PROVIDE THAT EDUCATION.

SOME GUARDRAILS ARE NOT INAPPROPRIATE IN MY JUDGMENT.

BUT NO.

AS A GENERAL RULE, I MUCH PREFER THAT AS I SAY THE MARKETPLACE GOVERN THIS, AND YOU'RE STARTING TO SEE THIS.

THERE IS A SHAKEOUT.

IT TOOK LONGER THAN MANY PEOPLE PREDICTED, INCLUDING THE, TO START.

EVERY DAY NOW SOMEBODY IS CLOSING, SOMEBODY IS CONSOLIDATING.

SOMEBODY IS SHRINKING.

THAT IS TOO DARN BAD.

BUT AGAIN, I THINK MANY OF THE WOUNDS WERE SELF-INFLICTED.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK MIGHT BE SOME OF THE UPSIDES OF THE ATTACKS ON UNIVERSITIES?

WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING THAT YOU WOULD LIKE VERSUS THE DOWNSIDE OF TRYING TO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO?

>> WE ARE SEEING SOME FOXHOLE CONVERSIONS BY A LOT OF PLACES WHO SUDDENLY HAVE REDISCOVERED THE IMPORTANCE OF FREE SPEECH AND CLEAR RULES TO PROTECT IT AND PROMOTE IT.

WE ARE SEEING PEOPLE REDISCOVER THE ADVANTAGES AND PROPRIETY OF INSTITUTIONAL NEUTRALITY.

AGAIN, OUR UNIVERSITY SHOULD BE ARENAS WHERE IDEAS CAN COMPETE, NOT PARTICIPANTS IN THE DEBATE THEMSELVES.

THEIR OWN INTERESTS AND BUSINESS IS NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS BELATED, BUT I THINK IT IS COMING.

AND I GUESS THAT SOMEWHAT WHIMSICAL PIECE THAT I WROTE WAS JUST ENCOURAGING THE SECTOR TO REFORM ITSELF SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE A GOVERNMENT AND ITS TYPICALLY CLUMSY AND SOMETIMES OVERSTATED WAY TRYING TO DO IT TO THEM.

>> ONE OF THE REAL PROBLEMS FOR HIGHER EDUCATION HAS BEEN THE COST.

I MEAN, I WROTE ABOUT SOMETHING WHERE 40 YEARS AGO SOMEBODY COULD GO TO A STATE COLLEGE FOR $38 MAY BE AS A SEMESTER OF TUITION.

NOW IN THE PAST 20 YEARS, EVEN STATE SCHOOLS HAVE GONE UP MORE THAN 140%.

PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

LET'S START WITH WHY.

WHY HAS THE COST INFLATED SO MUCH?

>> THEY RAISED THE PRICE OF EDUCATION BECAUSE THEY COULD, WALTER.

I HAVE SOMETIMES SAID TO PEOPLE, HERE IS A BUSINESS YOU SHOULD HAVE GONE IN.

YOU ARE SELLING WHICH WAS DEEMED A NECESSITY.

THERE'S QUESTIONS AROUND IT NOW, BUT THE BACHELOR'S DEGREE WAS SEEN AS AN ESSENTIAL PASSPORT TO A BETTER LIFE AND CAREER.

THERE HAS BEEN NO MEASUREMENT OF QUALITY.

NOBODY REALLY KNEW IF A SOCIOLOGY DEGREE FROM SCHOOL A WAS BETTER OR WORSE THAN ONE FROM SCHOOL B.

AND SO THEY RAISED PRICES BECAUSE THEY COULD.

AND IT WENT ON FOR LONGER THAN 20 YEARS.

I WOULD SAY AT LEAST TWICE THAT LONG.

SO I WAS WRONG AS I SAID.

I THOUGHT THE MARKETPLACE WOULD PUSH BACK MUCH SOONER THAN IT DID.

BUT FINALLY YOU ARE SEEING IT.

FORGIVE ME FOR INSERTING A COMMERCIAL, BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.

AT PURDUE UNIVERSITY, TUITION AND FEES FOR ALL STUDENTS IS EXACTLY THE SAME NOW AS IT WAS IN 2012.

AND WILL BE FOR AT LEAST THE NEXT COUPLE YEARS.

SO IF YOU PRIORITIZE AFFORDABILITY, ACCESSIBILITY, AND THEREFORE THE QUALITY PER DOLLAR THAT A STUDENT'S FAMILY SPENDS, IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO DO.

>> AS YOU HAVE SAID, YOU FROZE TUITION WHEN YOU WERE PRESIDENT OF PURDUE.

AND NOW FOR THE PAST 13, 14 YEARS, IT HAS STAYED FROZEN.

WHAT DID YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET COSTS DOWN?

WHERE WAS THE WASTE IN THE BUDGET?

>> I WOULD LOVE TO TELL YOU IT WAS SOME STROKE OF MANAGERIAL BRILLIANCE.

I REALLY CANNOT MAKE THAT CLAIM.

I USED TO SAY, WELL, WE WILL FOLLOW THE EQUATION FOR ZERO INSTEAD OF ASKING AS HIGHER EDUCATION WAS ABLE TO DO FOR A VERY LONG TIME, HOW MUCH MONEY -- HOW MUCH MORE MONEY WOULD IT TAKE THIS YEAR TO KEEP EVERYBODY HAPPY?

BECAUSE IT WAS VERY EASY TO EXTRACT FOR SO VERY LONG.

WE ASKED THE QUESTION, WHAT WOULD WE HAVE TO DO TO AVOID RAISING PRICES ON OUR STUDENTS?

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE SOME ELEMENTS.

WE HAD AN ANTIQUATED HEALTH INSURANCE SYSTEM, WHICH WE WERE ABLE TO MAKE MORE CONSUMER ORIENTED.

THAT SAVED A LOT OF MONEY.

CAPITAL EXPENDITURES.

IF YOU ARE REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT THE WAY YOU BUILD THINGS AND HOW MANY THINGS YOU BUILD IN THE FIRST PLACE, WE SAVE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN THAT AREA.

BUT IT REALLY WAS NOT VERY HARD.

AND HONESTLY MOST OF YOUR VIEWING AUDIENCE COULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING.

>> AS SOMEBODY WHO WAS A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR AND PRESIDENT OF PURDUE, PRESIDENT OF A UNIVERSITY, IF YOU WERE PRESIDENT NOW OF PURDUE OR ANOTHER UNIVERSITY AND YOU SAW TRUMP'S ATTACKS COMING AT YOU TELLING YOU YOU NEEDED TO HAVE MORE OVERSIGHT ON WHO GOT TO GET TENURE, WHAT WAS TAUGHT, WHAT TYPES OF COURSES TAUGHT, HOW WOULD YOU PUSH BACK?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT IS REALLY NOT AN APPROPRIATE ROLE.

CERTAINLY NOT FOR THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT.

AGAIN, I MIGHT SEE SOME ROLE FOR STATES WHEN THEY ARE FUNDING STATE UNIVERSITIES.

BUT LEAVING THAT EXCEPTION ASIDE, I DON'T THINK IT IS.

THE ANSWER SHOULD BE, WE WILL REFORM OURSELVES.

WE HEAR THAT SOME, NOT ALL OF THESE CRITICISMS HAVE VALIDITY.

AND WE ARE MOVING.

WE ARE WORKING ON IT.

AND IT IS OUR JOB TO DO IT, NOT YOURS.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY AND WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR FELLOW REPUBLICANS -- THOSE WHO ARE MORE SUPPORTIVE OF TRUMP'S ATTACKS OF UNIVERSITIES -- WOULD SAY IF IT WERE KAMALA HARRIS DOING THIS AND SAYING, HERE IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT MORE IN UNIVERSITIES?

>> IF YOU PERMIT ME, I HAVE NOT HAD ANY PARTISAN AFFILIATION SINCE THE DAY I ACCEPTED THE PURDUE JOB THAT IS NOW 13 YEARS AGO.

SO IF YOU WILL TAKE MY ANSWER AS COMING FROM A NONPARTISAN DIRECTION.

NO.

I THINK THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A LARGE-SCALE NEGATIVE REACTION TO THAT.

I AM, HOWEVER, MOVED TO SAY THAT HIGHER EDUCATION IN TERMS OF WHAT WAS BEING TAUGHT, THE WAY IT WAS BEING TAUGHT AND THE GENERAL RULES OF THE ROAD -- I'M NOT SURE THAT A PRESIDENT HARRIS WOULD HAVE HAD MUCH TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.

IT FIT I THINK HER WORLDVIEW AND THAT OF PEOPLE GENERALLY ASSOCIATED WITH HER.

THE WAY THINGS WERE WAS MORE OR LESS THE WAY THEY AND FOLKS LIKE THEM HAD WANTED THEM TO BE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ONE BIG PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION.

IN THE AGE OF AI AND IN AN AGE WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING A COLLEGE DEGREE -- THAT ACTUALLY DOESN'T HELP ME GET AHEAD AS MUCH AS IT USED TO, WHAT IS THE VALUE OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND IN PARTICULAR HIGHER EDUCATION IN WHICH BOTH THE ARTS AND SCIENCES ARE TAUGHT?

>> I WISH I WAS TOTALLY CONFIDENT IN AN ANSWER HERE, WALTER.

I DON'T PRETEND TO KNOW WHERE AI.

THE PEOPLE CREATING IT DON'T SEEM TO KNOW EITHER.

BUT I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT ASSUMING THAT THE MACHINES DON'T TAKE OVER AND KICK US TO THE CURB THAT THERE WILL BE A ROLE OF THIS MAYBE EVEN A BIGGER ROLE FOR PEOPLE WHO UNDERTAKE HIGHER EDUCATION AS WE HAVE KNOWN IT.

WHO LEARN THE WIDE VARIETY OF VIEWS AND PHILOSOPHIES THAT HUMANS HAVE DEVELOPED OVER TIME .

COMPARE AND CONTRAST THEMSELVES.

WHO CAN DISCUSS THEM INTELLIGENTLY WITH OTHERS AND WHO CAN THEREFORE CONTINUE TO GROW AS A I AND OTHER DEVELOPMENTS CHANGE OUR WORLD DAILY.

>> MITCH DANIELS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.