>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

VENEZUELA ON EDGE.

GUNFIRE NEAR THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE AND AN ACTING PRESIDENT IS SWORN IN.

I SPEAK TO U.S.

SENATOR ANGUS KING, A MEMBER OF THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE ON WHAT THE U.S.

IS DOING BEHIND THE SCENES IN VENEZUELA.

THEN.

>> THE UNITED STATES IS USING ITS MILITARY TO SECURE OUR INTERESTS IN OUR HEMISPHERE.

>> FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICIAL JUAN GONZALEZ ON WHAT IT MEANS FOR VENEZUELA, GREENLAND AND AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD.

>>> ALSO AHEAD.. WAR AND DIPLOMACY IN EUROPE.

RUSSIA LAUNCHES NEW DEADLY STRIKES ON UKRAINE AS EUROPEAN LEADERS MEET IN PARIS.

UKRAINIAN MP JOINS ME FROM KYIV.

FIVE YEARS AFTER JANUARY 6th, AUTHOR OF "HOW FASHIONISM WORKS" JASON STANLEY ON WHY HE BELIEVES AMERICA'S DEMOCRATIC GUARDRAILS ARE FAILING.

FASCISM WORKS."

JAZZ ONE STANLEY ON WHY HE BELIEVES AMERICA'S DEMOCRATIC GUARDRAILS ARE FAILING.

AMANPOUR COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDICE KING WEIR.

PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STROWS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLOOM.

AND COMMITTED TO BRIDGING COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE SUCKERBERG.

AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

THE SITUATION IN VENEZUELA IS GROWING INCREASINGLY TENSE.

REPORTS REPORT CHECKPOINTS SPREADING ACROSS THE COUNTRY AS JOURNALISTS FACE REPRESSION AND SECURITY FORCES PATROLLING THE STREETS UNDER SWEEPING EMERGENCY POWERS.

GUNFIRE WAS HEARD OVERNIGHT NEAR THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE AFTER THE UNITED STATES CAPTURED THE PRESIDENT AND HIS WIFE AND TOOK THEM TO NEW YORK TO STAND TRIAL.

SO FAR, LOYALISTS REMAIN IN POWER.

ACTING PRESIDENT RODRIGUEZ WAS SWORN IN YESTERDAY.

AND THE WHITE HOUSE INSISTS IT IS NOW IN CONTROL THROUGH MILITARY PRESSURE AND ECONOMIC COERCION.

IN AN INTERVIEW NBC MONDAY NIGHT U.S.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SAID THAT HE IS THE ONE WHO IS ULTIMATELY IN CHARGE IN VENEZUELA.

THE OPPOSITION, MEANWHILE, APPEAR SIDELINED.

TURNING TO FOX NEWS OFFERING A HERE IS WHAT SHE SAID.

>> I ACTUALLY SPOKE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP ON OCTOBER 10th, THE SAME DAY THAT IT WAS ANNOUNCED.

NOT SINCE THEN BUT I DO WANT TO SAY TODAY ON BEHALF OF THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE HOW GRATEFUL WE ARE FOR HIS COURAGEOUS MISSION AND THE ACTIONS HISTORICAL ACTIONS HE HAS TAKEN AGAINST THESE TERRORIST REGIME TO START DISMANTLING THIS STRUCTURE AND BRING HIM TO JUSTICE.

>> AND NOTABLY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS NOW BACKED AWAY FROM A CENTRAL TRUMP CLAIM THAT MEDURO LED A DRUG TRAFFICKING DEAL.

WHAT IS NEXT?

ANGUS KING JOINS ME NOW.

SENATOR T IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

WE KNOW CONGRESS WAS NOT NOTIFIED AHEAD OF THIS MORNING IN SNATCHING CAPTURING THE VEN VENS PRESIDENT AND HIS WIFE.

THEY WERE UPDATE --VENEZUELA PRESIDENT AND HIS WIFE.

THEY WERE UPDATED SHORTLY AFTER.

AND THEN THEY WERE BRIEFED YESTERDAY.

I WOULD LIKE TO READ FOR YOU WHAT A MEMBER WHO WAS BRIEFED YESTERDAY SAID ABOUT THAT BRIEFING.

SHE SAID IT FAILED TO DETAIL A CONCRETE PLAN FOR A POST VENEZUELA.

I BELIEVE YOU AND OTHER SENATORS WILL BE BRIEFED TOMORROW BY TOP GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS WHAT ARE SOME OF THE MOST URGENT QUESTIONS YOU HAVE FOR THEM.

>> WHAT IS THE PLAN?

IT APPEARS THERE IS NOT ONE.

IT LOOKED FROM THE REACTION OF MARCO RUBIO'S FACE SAID WE ARE GOING TO RUN THE COUNTRY.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS AND WHO THEY WILL BE WORKING WITH.

IRONICALLY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE SO FAR.

THE CURRENT REGIME AND THAT REALLY UNDERCUTS THE RATIONAL OF THE CHANGE.

INSTEAD OF GOING TO THE FELLA THAT RIGHTFULLY WON THE ELECTION THEY REINSTALLED THE VICE PRESIDENT THAT IS PART OF MACHADO'S --MADURO'S REGIME.

HE DID NOT CONSULT THE CONGRESS BUT HE INFORMED THE OIL CUTCHES.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO REACT TO THAT.

WE ARE THE PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVES WE SHOULD BE INFORMED ABOUT THE KIND OF ACTION THAT IS NOW TAKING PLACE.

>> RIGHT.

THERE HAS BEEN A REPORT THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD TOLD TOP OIL EXECUTIVES THAT SOMETHING BIG WAS COMING.

NOT THE SPECIFICS, PERHAPS, BUT TO GET READY FOR SOMETHING BIG IN THE REGION.

>> YOU HAVE CALLED NICHOLAS MADURO A BAD GUY THAT DESERVED JUSTICE.

BUT DOING THE RIGHT THING ONLY MATTERS IN IT IS DONE THE RIGHT WAY.

WHAT IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST LINE THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH RIGHT NOW THAT THE U.S.

MAY HAVE CROSSED AND WHAT CHECKS DO YOU HAVE AS A MEMBER OF CONGRESS TO MAKE SURE THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN.

>> THE PROBLEM IS, THERE ARE TWO PROBLEMS, THE FIRST, RE- ESTABLISHMENT OF GEOPOLITICS GOING BACK 100 OR 200 OR 300 YEARS WHERE BASICALLY THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE WANT IN THE AMERICAN CONTINENT.

HE IS TALKING ABOUT MEXICO, COLOMBIA, VENEZUELA, THREATENING GREENLAND.

THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT IS A HALL PASS FOR JINPING AND PUTIN TO DO WHAT THEY WANT IN THEIR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW WE SAY NO, YOU CAN NOT GO INTO TAIWAN THAT IS CLOSER TO CHINA THAN VENEZUELA IS TO THE U.S.

OR TO PUTIN, NO, YOU HAVE TO STAY AWAY FROM THE BALTICS AND LEAVE UKRAINE WHEN WE ESSENTIALLY OPENED THAT DOOR.

IT IS A VERY, VERY SERIOUS GEOPOLITICAL PROBLEM.

THE SECOND THING IS I HAVE BEEN DOING THE WORK FOR A DOZEN YEARS OR SO.

I COME TO REALIZE AMERICA'S ADVANTAGE IN THE WORLD IS ALLIES.

WE HAVE ALLIES.

CHINA HAS CUSTOMERS.

RUSSIA ONLY HAS PEOPLE THAT THEY HAVE THEIR THUMB ON.

BUT, THE ALLIES, THE ALLIANCES THAT WE HAVE AROUND THE WORLD ARE WHAT GIVE US THE POWER AROUND THE WORLD TO INFLUENCE EVENTS AND TO DEFEND OUR INTEREST BY SORT OF SYSTEMATICALLY POKING THE EYE OF OUR ALLIES NOW DENMARK BUT ALSO, GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO POKE OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES THAT UNDERMINEDS AMERICAN NATIONAL SECURITY.

AND, THAT IS WHAT REALLY WORRIES ME.

IT WAS ISSUED A MONTH AGO BY THE ADMINISTRATION.

TALKING ABOUT THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE WHICH IS NOT A MAJOR PROBLEM.

YES, DRUGS ARE A PROBLEM.

BUT OUR MAJOR RIVALS IN THE WORLD ARE RUSSIA AND CHINA, LET'S BE SERIOUS, IT IS NOT VENEZUELA.

IT IS NOT CLOSMIA.

COLUMBIA, WE HAVE COLOMBIA, WE ARE STRAINING AT NATS HERE.

>> AS WE HEARD LAST NIGHT, MILLER INTRODUCED AND SAID WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED AND OWNED IT SAYING THIS IS GOING TO BE NOW THE DONRO DOCTRINE THAT SUGGESTS THAT BECAUSE THE U.S.

IS THE WORLD'S LEADING SUPER POWER IT CAN EFFECTIVELY DO WHAT IT WANTS ESPECIALLY IN ITS OWN HEMISPHERE AND ALSO WAS ASKED ABOUT GREENLAND WHICH HE SAID INEVERYITABLY BE PART OF THE UNITED STATES.

HERE IS WHAT HE VIEWS IS THE BEST.

>> THE UNITED STATES IS USING OUR INTEREST TO PROTECT OUR HEMISPHERE.

WE ARE A SUPER POWER.

UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP WE ARE GOING TO CONDUCT OURSELVES AS A SUPER POWER.

IT IS ABSURD THAT WE WOULD ALLOW A NATION IN OUR OWN BACKYARD TO BECOME THE SUPPLIER OF RESOURCES TO OUR ADVERSARIES BUT NOT TO US, HORDE THE WEAPON.

>> LET ME PICK UP ON ONE OF THE TWO POINTS.

FIRST, U.S.

CONTROL OVER OUR OWN HEMISPHERE HERE HE CALLED ABSURD THAT WAS NOT THE CASE UNTIL NOW AND HE SUGGESTING THAT WITH CONTROL OVER VENEZUELA, A STABILIZING VENEZUELA WITH THE CURRENT REGIME MINOUS NICHOLAS MADURO, THE HEAD OF THE REGIME, IF THAT REGIME WILL WORK FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE ALONGSIDE U.S.

POLICIES AND INITIATIVES THEY CAN STAY IN PLACE, PERHAPS, LATER THAN CAN HAVE ELECTIONS.

THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE SUGGESTING THAT IS A BETTER PATH GOING FORWARD THAN FOCUSING ON BRINGING IN SOMEONE LIKE MACHADO FROM THE OPPOSITION IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE THERE MAY BE DISJOINTEDNESS BETWEEN HER GOVERNMENT AND THAT OF THE MILITARY THERE.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT LOGIC?

>> WELL, THE FIRST THING THAT I WANT TO SAY IS WHAT THIS ACTION HAS DONE IS CONVERTED US FROM BEING A WORLD POWER TO A REGIONAL POWER.

IT REDUCED AMERICAN POWER AND INFLUENCE AROUND THE WORLD BY FOCUSING ON THE NARROW ISSUES LET ME TALK ABOUT GREENLAND FOR A MINUTE.

WE HAVE HAD A MILITARY BASE, AN AIR FORCE BASE, NOW A SPACE FORCE BASE IN GREENLAND FOR 75 YEARS.

THE PRESIDENT LAST NIGHT ON AIR FORCE ONE I SAW THE QUOTE, WE NEED GREENLAND FOR NATIONAL SECURITY.

I AM UTTERLY CONVINCED AND CERTAIN THAT DENMARK AND THE PEOPLE OF GREENLAND WOULD BE RECEPTIVE AND COOPERATIVE TO WORKING WITH US ON NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUES IN IT IS AN ADDITIONAL BASE, IF IS A PORT FACILITY OR WHATEVER IT IS NEEDED TO DEFEND THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF NORTH AMERICA AND THE WORLD GENERALLY.

SO, THAT REALLY IS NOT THE ISSUE.

IT IS SORT OF SIMILAR TO VENEZUELA.

THIS WAS ALL OF THIS TALK ABOUT DRUGS AND THE REPRESSIVE NATURE OF THE REGIME.

IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PRESS CONFERENCE AT MAR-A-LAGO IN THE LAST TWO OR THREE DAYS IT IS MORE CLEAR ABOUT VENEZUELA OIL.

THAT IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT KEEPS TALKING ABOUT AND KEEPS TALKING ABOUT.

AND, IS THAT, IS THAT A PROPER --ARE WE GOING TO BE IN THE BUSINESS OF INVADING AND TAKING OVER OTHER COUNTRIES IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH THEIR NATURAL RESOURCES?

I KNOW THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT OIL INDUSTRY AND VENEZUELA AND THE APPROPRIATION AND ALL OF THAT BUT WE NEED TO BE CLEAR OF THE GOALS.

AS I SAID AT THE BEGINNING I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE PLAN IS.

THEY DECAPITATED THE LEADERSHIP OF VENEZUELA, INSTALLED THE VICE PRESIDENT THAT IS PART OF THE MADURO REGIME, THEY SAID MAYBE ELECTIONS SOMEDAY.

BUT, AGAIN.

I AM STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT IS, A, WHAT ARE OUR GOALS, WHAT IS OUR PLAN FOR ACHIEVING THEM AND MY WORRY IS AS I MENTIONED, THAT THIS REALLY UNDER CUTS OUR AUTHORITY AND OUR ABILITY TO INFLUENCE WORLD EVENTS ACROSS THIS IS A NARROWING INFLUENCE AS OPPOSED TO BROADENING INFLUENCE.

I SHOULD OF SAID, BY THE WAY, WHAT THE MILITARY DID WAS AMAZING AND THEY ARE INCREDIBLY COMPETENT AND I AM NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM THAT WHAT SO EVER.

IT IS JUST A QUESTION OF WHAT HAPPENS NEXT AND IT IS PRETTY CLEAR IN THE LAST THREE DAYS, NOBODY KNOWS.

>> WOULD THE STATUS QUO, THEN N YOUR OPINION AND NOT REMOVING MADURO BEEN MORE OPTIMAL FOR THE UNITED STATES?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW --THE QUESTION IS, DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE?

IS MADURO'S VICE PRESIDENT AND LEAVING ALL OF THE ARMED FORCES AND THE SECRET POLICE AND EVERYBODY HE HAD IN PLACE, DOES THAT IMPROVE A LOT OF THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE?

CHANGE THE CIRCUMSTANCES?

I MEAN, MADURO IS A BAD GUY.

HE WASIL LEGITIMATE.

HE ILLEGITIMATE.

THIS PRESIDENT PARDONED, THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF HONDURAS WHO WAS CONVICTED IN AN AMERICAN COURT OF BEING A MAJOR DRUG SMUGGLER.

SO, IT IS HARD TO SAY THAT DRUGS ARE BAD WITH MADURO BUT OKAY WITH HERNANDEZ.

THERE IS NO OVERALL STRATEGY OR RATIONAL FOR THE POLICY THAT WE UNDERTAKEN AND AS I SAID I THINK IT REALLY UNDERMINEDS AMERICAN SECURITY RATHER THAN ENHANCES IT.

>> LET ME FINALLY END BY ASKING YOU ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED MUCH CLOSER TO HOME.

THE HALLS BEHIND YOU THERE FIVE YEARS AGO TODAY.

THAT WAS THE STORMING OF THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th, FIVE YEARS AGO, TRUMP GRANTED AMNESTY TO THE NEARLY 600 PEOPLE IMPLICATED IN THE RIOT EARLIER TODAY.

HE WAS CRITICIZING THE INVESTIGATION INTO THE RIOT, INTO THE PROSECUTION OF THOSE WHO HAD STORMED THE CAPITOL AND WON THE ELECTION.

JUST TALK ABOUT YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND YOUR CONCERNS THAT THERE CONTINUE TO BE DIVERGING NARRATIVES HERE ON WHAT HAPPENED THAT DAY.

REALLY, A REWRITING OF HISTORY FOR A LARGE SECTION OF THE COUNTRY WHEN WE ALL SAW WITH OUR OWN EYES EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

>> THAT IS WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY.

THIS IS THE OLD SAYING, WHO ARE YOU GOING TO BELIEVE ME OR YOUR OWN LYING EYES.

I WAS HERE, WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENED, WE ALL SAW IT ON THE SCREENS OF AMERICA AND OF THE WORLD.

AND ALSO WE HAD POLICE OFFICERS WHO WERE INJURED AND ATTACKED AND THE IDEA OF PARDONING PEOPLE WHO VIOLENTLY ATTACKED POLICE OFFICERS, I JUST, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT.

I THINK THAT KIND OF VIOLENCE IS NEVER JUSTIFIED AND BY PARDONING THE PEOPLE WHAT YOU ARE REALLY SAYING IS IF YOU COMMIT VIOLENCE ON MY BEHALF YOU ARE GOING TO BE OKAY.

THAT IS, THAT IS NOT LAW AND >> SENATOR KING, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE APPRECIATE IT TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> FOR ALL OF THE UNCERTAINTY SURROUNDING VENEZUELA'S FUTURE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS PROJECTING TOTAL CONFIDENCE, GROUNDED IN FORCE BUT NOT DIPLOMACY, HERE IS WHITE HOUSE AIDE STEVEN MILLER.

>> WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHICH YOU CAN TALK ALL YOU WANT ABOUT INTERNATIONAL NICETIES AND EVERYTHING ELSE BUT WE LIVE IN A WORLD, IN THE REAL WORLD, JAKE, THAT IS GOVERNED BY STRENGTH, THAT GOVERNED BY FORCE, THAT IS GOVERNED BY POWER.

THESE ARE THE IRON LAWS OF THE WORLD THAT EXISTED SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME.

>> SO, WHAT DOES THIS ASSERTIVE CLAIM OF U.S.

POWER ACROSS THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE REALLY MEAN NOT JUST FOR VENEZUELA BUT ALSO GREENLAND?

JOINING ME NOW IS FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR FOR THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE, JUAN GONZALEZ, JUAN, WELCOME TO THE >>> FIRST, YOUR REACTION TO WHAT WE HEARD FROM STEVEN MILLER.

>> WELL, I MEAN -- I THINK THE REMOVAL OF MADURO REMOVED ONE CHAPTER BUT OPENED UP A MORE DANGEROUS ONE.

IT RISKS IMPLICATED THE UNITED STATES IN A DRAWN OUT MILITARY CONFLICT THAT THE VOTER THAT SUPPORTED TRUMP DO NOT WANT.

AND, I THINK, THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE IF YOU ARE USING POWER YOU ARE, I THINK YOU CAN POINT GUNS AT YOUR FRIENDS FOR ONLY SO LONG BEFORE THEY START POINTING GUNS BACK.

THERE IS AN APPROACH THAT IS GOING TO MARGINALIZE THE UNITED STATES NOT JUST IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE BUT THE BROADER COMMUNITY.

IT PUTS CHINA IN A ROLE WHERE THEY ARE THE PROTECTORS OF AN INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM.

THEY CALLED A MEETING TO CRITICIZE WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING.

AMERICA FIRST IS AMERICA ALONE IN THIS REGARD.

>> WE HAVE SEEN RUSSIA AND CHINA CRITICIZE AND SPEAK AGAINST SOME U.S.

ACTIONS.

WE ACTUALLY HAVE NOT SEEN THEM AND THE QUESTION IS, WILL THEY?

IS THIS A DETERRENT OR A GREEN LIGHT FOR CHINA OR RUSSIA TO ACT SIMILARLY IN THEIR OWN REGIONS?

THAT IS YET TO BE DETERMINED.

I DO WANT TO SPEAK ABOUT YOUR PIECE IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CALLING THE OYSTER OF NICHOLAS MADURO THE END OF THE BEGINNING.

YOU SAY MANY AMERICANS SEE THE REMOVAL AS A CLONE VICTORY.

WHAT IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST ILLUSION THAT YOU THINK ABOUT HOW IT PLAYED OUT AND WHAT HAS UNFOLDED IN THE FIRST 48 HOURS SINCE HIS OUSTER WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT YOU HAVE?

>> CERTAINLY, WE ARE SEEING IT PLAYOUT.

THE SCENARIO, DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS THE ACTING PRESIDENT NOW, SECURITY REMAINS IN TACT, THE NETWORK REMAIN INTACT.

IT IS NOT REGIME CHANGE IT IS AUTOCRAT CHANGE.

WE HAVE SEEN A SPIKE IF VIOLENCE, CRACK DOWN, THERE IS STILL 800 POLITICAL PRISONERS IN THE COUNTRY, ARREST AND INTIMIDATION IS INCREASING AND THAT TELLS YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT HOW FRAGILE THIS IS.

FUNDAMENTALLY IT DOES NOT HOLD.

THERE WAS ALSO AN ELECTION IN JULY OF 2024 WHERE THERE WAS A ELECTED PRESIDENT, AND SECRETARY RUBIO CALLED THAT ILLEGITIMATE.

IT IS UNSURE WHAT IT IS.

FIRST IT WAS THAT AND THEN DRUGS AND NOW OIL.

IT IS UNCLEAR AND THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN LYING TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND TO CONGRESS ABOUT IT.

>> WELL, THERE ARE SOME PARALLELS THAT SOME ARE MAKING OUT OF CONCERN THAT THIS COULD, ONCE AGAIN, LOOK LIKE AN IRAQ 2.0.

THE MISSION ACCOMPLISHED WHEN THE RESULT IS ANYTHING BUT THAT.

AND, THOSE WHO MAKE THAT ARGUMENT SORT OF MISS WHAT THE U U.S.

U.S.

HAS DONE THUS FAR AND INSTEAD OF CALLING IT IN IMMEDIATELY, AND LET'S WORK ON STABILIZING THE SITUATION AND BY WORKING WITH SOME OF THESE MORE PRAGMATIC, AS THEY ARE DESCRIBED, LIKE DELCY RODRIGUEZ, OFFICIALS WHO WILL, MAYBE IT IS BECAUSE OF STRENGTH AND PRESSURE FROM THE UNITED STATES AGREE TO FOLLOW U.S.

POLICY AND AT LEAST TEMPORARILY STABILIZE THE SITUATION BEFORE THEN ELECTIONS ARE THEN HELD.

THIS WAS, I BELIEVE, FROM SOME REPORTING THAT SUGGESTION AND ADVICE FROM THE CIA.

IS THAT NOT IN YOUR VIEW, PERHAPS, AN INDICATION OF LESSONS LEARNED AND SOME ACTUAL PLANNING THAT WENT INTO THIS OPERATION?

>> CERTAINLY.

A LOT OF REFERENCES TO THE ADMINISTRATION LEARNING THE MISTAKES WHERE THEY DISMANTLED THE WHOLE KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE AROUND SADDAM HUSSEIN.

AT THE SAME TIME, THIS EFFORT TO TRY TO MANAGE AND RUN THE COUNTRY AS SECRETARY RUBIO IS FROM THE OUTSIDE IT IS NOT GOING TO AGE WELL.

WE ARE SEEING THAT IN TERMS OF THE CHAOS INSIDE OF THE COUNTRY.

WE NEED TO BE CLEAR WITH OURSELVES, PARTICULARLY IF YOU LOOK AT THE PRESIDENT'S OWN WORLDS, THIS IS, THIS IS ALL ABOUT OIL.

I THINK THIS IS WHERE THAT I ARE REFERRED TO MY ARTICLE BECOMES MORE DANGEROUS.

YOU KNOW, WHETHER THE CONTROL OVER REVENUES IS THE PRIZE IT BRINGS UP CORRUPTION, NOT JUST INSIDE OF VENEZUELA BUT IN THE UNITED STATES, PARTICULARLY WITH THIS PRESIDENT'S TENDENCY TO SELF--DEAL ON THIS.

I POINT OUT BRIEFLY WHETHER YOU APPROVE LICENSES FOR COMPANIES TO OPERATE, INDIVIDUAL LICENSES ARE PRIVATE.

SO, I THINK IT WILL BE IMPORTANT FOR THE TRANSPARENT ON WHICH LICENSES WILL BE APPROVED AND HOW MANY OF THEM ARE MAR-A-LAGO DONORS, CONGRESS NEEDS TO HAVE INCREDIBLE OVERSIGHT OVER WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING.

I THINK TO WHAT MILLER SAID, I THINK THE DOCTRINE, THE ENGAGEMENT IS OPTIONAL AND UNILATERAL.

THAT APPROACH IT IS SOMETHING THAT LEAVES THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE WITH NO AGENCY AND TELLS COUNTRIES DECISIONS WILL BE MADE FOR YOU AND NOT WITH YOU.

AND RIGHT NOW THE DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE HEMISPHERE ARE SCARED.

WHAT IT MEANS TO THE UNITED STATES TO START ACTING ON WHATEVER IT DOES NOT LIKE THE OUTCOME.

I THINK THAT IS CONCERNING.

I THINK THERE IS A CHANCE, MAYBE, THAT MARCO RUBIO PULLS IT OFF.

HISTORY TELLS US, THIS WILL BE HORRIBLY SIDEWAYS, ARE WE GOING TO PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND?

IT WILL TAKE 30-50,000 U.S.

MARINES TO ACTUALLY CONTROL THE SITUATION IN THE COUNTRY.

WAS ELECTED TO DO.

>> YEAH.

AND IT IS STILL UNKNOWN IF THAT WILL ULTIMATELY BE THE CASE THE PRESIDENT THREATENED THAT COULD HAPPEN.

THUS FAR THERE ARE NO U.S.

TROOPS ON THE GROUND IN VENEZUELA.

WE KNOW WE HAVE A LARGE NAVAL PRESENCE STILL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

YOU WERE INSTRUMENTAL IN VENEZUELA, U.S.

POLICY UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

ON THE ONE HAND HE TOOK A HARD LINE ON VENEZUELA RHETORICALLY AND TWEETING AS PRESIDENT I WILL STAND WITH THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE AND STANDING AGAINST MADURO, ON THE OTHER HAND, PEOPLE TRAVELED THERE AND MET WITH HIS GOVERNMENT SPECIFICALLY OVER OIL PRICES, LOOKING BACK WERE THERE MISTAKES PLAYED IN YOUR ADMINISTRATION?

IN PERHAPS NEGLECTING THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE AND THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE OF KEEPING MADURO IN PLACE?

TOOK A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

WE INVESTED IN A DEMOCRATIC OUTCOME.

THE REASON THERE WERE ELECTIONS, THE MOMENT THAT LED TO THE ELECTION WAS SOMETHING THAT THE UNITED STATES HELPED FACILITATE.

WE WORKED THROUGH ELECTION SANCTIONS RELIEF, TIED TO CONDITIONS AND WE TREATED VENEZUELAN AS POLITICAL ACTORS.

THAT APPROACH WAS SLOW, FRAGILE, INCOMPLETE, BUT IT WAS GROUNDED THAT LEGITIMACY MATTERS.

BIDEN TRIED TO SHAPE THEM, TRUMP IS OWNING WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN VENEZUELA.

YOU NEED TO MEET WITH YOUR ADVERSARIES, THE PRESIDENT MET WITH PUTIN, HE MET WITH THE LEADER OF NORTH KOREA AS WELL.

YOU NEED TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS TO NEGOTIATE AN OUTCOME.

UNDERSTANDABLY THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS TAKES TIME BUT IT IS THE SUSTAINABLE APPROACH.

THAT IS WHAT HISTORY TELLS US, THE UNITED STATES INVADES A COUNTRY IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE, BUT A LOT OF EXAMPLES THIS CENTURY AND THE GENERALLY NOT GOOD.

>> I THINK THE CONCERN AND CRITICISM AROUND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ENGAGING IN TALKS ABOUT MADURO IS THAT SEEMED TO BE OUT OF A PLACE OF CONCERN AND PANIC AND WEAKNESS WITH OIL PRICES LOOMING AFTER RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE.

INSTEAD OF OUT OF A POSITION OF STRENGTH.

THAT IS SOME OF THE CRITICISM.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT ADDITIONAL CRITICISM THAT YOU PERSONALLY RECEIVED AFTER YOUR LAST APPEARANCE ON THIS PROGRAM IN MOVE.

HUMAN RIGHTS FOUNDATION PUBLICLY ACCUSED YOU OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

CLAIM TO BENEFIT FINANCIALLY FROM THE CONTINUANCE OF THE CURRENT VENEZUELA REGIME DUE TO LINKS TO BONDHOLDERS WITH FINANCIAL INTEREST IN KEEPING THE REGIME IN PLACE.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THOSE ACCUSATIONS?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN --FIRST I WILL SAY JUST ON THE LAST POINT, THE UNITED STATES WAS ABLE TO SECURE THE RELEASE OF ALL OF THE AMERICANS THAT WERE DETAINED INSIDE OF I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE REASONS TO NEGOTIATE WITH IT TO BRING THE AMERICANS HOME AND THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE RESPONSIBLE.

WE WILL NOT MAKE ANY APOLOGIES FOR THAT.

ON THE SECOND IS, LOOK, I DON'T LOBBY, I DON'T REPRESENT FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS, MY POSITION IS ALWAYS CONSISTENT FROM THE ADMINISTRATION TO NOW WHERE WE NEED TO SUPPORT A DEMOCRATIC OUTCOME.

VENEZUELANS ARE THE ONES TO DETERMINE YOUR FUTURE.

I AM NOT GETTING PAID BY PEOPLE TO SAY THIS.

THEY ARE MY OPINIONS AND THEY WILL BE MY OPINIONS AND THEY ARE NOT FOR SALE.

>> JUAN GONZALEZ.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, I URGE EVERYONE TO READ YOUR PIECE IT IS A THOUGHTFUL ONE AND TIMELY AS WELL.

THANK YOU FOR THE TIME.

>>> NOW TO UKRAINE.

RUSSIAN STRIKES KILLED TWO PEOPLE ON MONDAY.

IT FORCED NIGHTTIME EVACUATIONS INTO FREEZING TEMPERATURES, THEY CAME A DAY BEFORE LEADERS FROM THE COALITION OF THE WILLING, UKRAINE'S KEY ALLIES, MET IN PARIS.

THEY ARE DISCUSSING SECURITY GUARANTEES FROM KYIV TO END RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE.

FOR THIS, WE ARE JOINED BY A MEMBER OF THE PARLIAMENT.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

SO, WHAT SPECIFICALLY DOES UKRAINE NEED TO SEE IN THE WRITING HERE TO BE CONFIDENT THAT ANY SORT OF SECURITY GUARANTEES WILL, IN FACT, HOLD IF THIS WAR, WHICH HOPEFULLY COMES TO AN END SOON, IF GOD FORBID THERE IS ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT REINVADING OR PERHAPS, EVEN BETTER, SERVES AS A DETERRENT OF THAT EVER HAPPENING AGAIN?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THIS IS A KEY POINT.

AND THE METRIC FOR DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW FOR WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE COALITION OF THE WILLING.

WHAT CAN DETOUR PUTIN IF HE DECIDES, AND WE ARE ALL SURE HE WILL DEFINITELY TRY TO ATTACK UKRAINE IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE HE CAN NOT BE TRUSTED, ABSOLUTELY.

PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE WE ARE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN THAT SOONER OR LATER, EVEN IF WE HAVE AN AGREEMENT OR PEACE PLAN HE WILL TRY TO ATTACK UKRAINE AGAIN.

AND THE KEY QUESTION IS HOW TO DETOUR HIM, WHAT MEASURES SHOULD BE TAKEN?

IN OUR SITUATION THE BEST SECURITY GUARANTEE REMAINS THE SAME.

WHICH IS NATO MEMBERSHIP FOR UKRAINE.

BECAUSE, PUTIN, HE DOES NOT DARE ATTACK NATO MEMBERS.

IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ALTERNATIVES, OF COURSE, THERE IS THE METRIC TO BE DISCUSSED AND, AGAIN, THERE MIGHT BE SOME KIND OF MEASURES A CUMULATIVE, SO TO SPEAK, TO DETOUR PUTIN.

AGAIN, THE KEY QUESTION REMAINS THE SAME.

WHAT CAN STOP HIM FROM ATTACKING UKRAINE AND THE PRESENT TIME WE DON'T HAVE CLEAR CUT ANSWER TO THIS DIFFICULT BUT IMPORTANT QUESTION.

>> CAN THAT QUESTION BE ANSWERED WITHOUT STATES ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING IN GUARANTEEING SECURITY?

>> I BELIEVE THAT THE UNITED STATES MIGHT BE SUFFICIENT DETERRENT BECAUSE THIS IS THE COUNTRY WHICH PUTIN IS AFRAID OF AS A DICTATOR.

THAT IS WHY PARTICIPATION EVER THE UNITED STATES WILL CONTRIBUTE, ENHANCE OUR CHANCES OF SURVIVAL AND IT WILL BE DETERRENT, RELIABLE DETERRENT.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED.

FROM ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE, ANOTHER ANGLE, PARTICIPATION OF THE UNITED STATES GIVES EXCELLENT EXAMPLE.

SUPPORTING UKRAINE AND PROVIDING RELIABLE SECURITY GUARANTEES.

>> IN ADDITION TO SECURITY GUARANTEES, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS SAID THAT UKRAINE IS 90% THERE IN TERMS OF THIS DEAL PUT TOGETHER BY THE UNITED STATES STATES.

AND AMENDED BY UKRAINE.

BUT THE 10%, NOT ONLY CONCERNS SECURITY GUARANTEES BUT TERRITORIAL CONTROL AS WELL.

UKRAINE CONSTANTLY SAYS THAT THERE IS NOTHING THEY CAN DO ON THIS ISSUE BECAUSE THEY ARE CONSTITUTIONALLY BOUND NOT TO GIVE UP TERRITORY.

ESPECIALLY TERRITORY THAT THEY STILL REMAIN IN CONTROL OF.

DO YOU SEE ANY POTENTIAL FOR AMENDING THAT IN HOPES OF GETTING TO A DEAL?

>> PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS MENTIONED THAT NOW WE HAVE 10% TO FINISH THE DEAL BUT HE ALSO SAID THAT IN THIS 10% IT IS EVERYTHING.

THESE ARE KEY ISSUES INCLUDING WHAT IS KNOWN AS TERRITORIAL ISSUE.

OF COURSE, WE SHOULD ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND THAT UKRAINE IS THE VICTIM OF AGGRESSION.

AND, WE CAN NOT AGREE TO ANY TERRITORIAL CONCESSIONS WHATSOEVER.

WE CAN NOT SACRIFICE OUR TERRITORIES, OUR PEOPLE LOTS OF REASONS.

FOR CONSTITUTIONAL, LEGAL REASONS, FOR REASONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

POLITICALLY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

MORALLY IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

RIGHT NOW I DON'T SEE AN ALTERNATIVE TO THAT.

I DON'T SEE A FORM IN WHICH IT WILL ALLOW TO SOLVE THIS ISSUE.

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULDN'T MAKE ANY TERRITORIAL CONCESSIONS.

IT WILL ONLY ENCOURAGE RUSSIA'S AGGRESSIVE STATE BUT POTENTIAL AGGRESSIVE CONCESSIONS.

>> THAT IS YOUR VIEW.

THAT IS THE VIEW OF MOST UKRAINIANS.

BUT PRACTICALLY SPEAKING, DO YOU THINK AT THE END EVER THE DAY THAT VIEW CAN HOLD?

>> I CAN NOT IMAGINE IT IN POSSIBLE OR PRACTICAL TERMS.

THE PREVIOUS SUGGESTIONS WITH REGARD OF DEMATERIALIZED ZONE DON'T SOUND LIKE SOMETHING THAT CAN BE IMPLEMENTED AND PRACTICED.

I CAN NOT IMAGINE WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE CITIES WHICH ARE RIGHT NOW SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED BY UKRAINE, ARMY IN THE DOMESKE REGION.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE PEOPLE?

UNDER WHICH CONTROL AND JURISDICTION THEY WILL BE.

THAT IS WHY FOR ME IT IS EVEN FROM PRACTICAL PERSPECTIVE, JUST IMPOSSIBLE.

>> THE U.S.

CAPTURE OF NICHOLAS MADURO HAS TRIGGERED OUTRAGE IN MOSCOW, RUSSIA ACCUSING WASHINGTON OF IMPERIALISM WITHOUT IRONY THERE.

I AM WONDER IF THIS WEEKEND'S RUSSIA STANCE IN THESE NEGOTIATIONS DOES THE U.S.

SHOW IT HAS STRENGTH AND VIEWS IT AS A DITERANT FOR RUSSIA BY SAYING IF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IS GOING INTO OTHER SOVEREIGN COUNTRIES I CAN CONTINUE TO DO THE SAME?

>> Caller: PUTIN LOST HIS ALLY.

MADURO WAS A DICTATOR HELPING PUTIN WAGE WAR AGAINST UKRAINE IN DIFFERENT WAYS, HE WAS VERY HELPFUL, IT WAS GREAT NEWS FOR UKRAINE AND DEMOCRACY FOR THE PEOPLE IN VENEZUELA THAT MADURO WAS TOPPLED BUT NOW WE ARE AT THE DANGEROUS CROSSROADS AND NOW WE HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE TO CONTINUE TO STAND FOR DEMOCRACY FOR RULE OF LAW INCLUDING INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS OR TO DIVIDE THE WORLD INTO SPHERES OF INFLUENCE.

AND IT MIGHT BE VERY DANGEROUS PATH TO TAKE.

BUT I HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL TAKE THE RIGHT PATH.

HE WILL SUPPORT DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS, HE WILL GIVE A CHANCE TO PEOPLE IN VENEZUELA TO DECIDE THEIR FATE AT THE DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS.

FOCUS OF UKRAINE AND FREE VENEZUELA WE SUPPORT THE FORCES IN VENEZUELA BRAVELY FIGHTING AGAINST DICTATORSHIP.

FOR ME, MY PERSPECTIVE, IT GIVES PEOPLE OF VENEZUELA A CHANCE TO PICK AND BUILD A FREE DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.

BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, I AM PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT AMERICA SHOULD SET EXAMPLE OF COMPLYING WITH SUPPORT AND RESPECT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND ITS PRINCIPALS.

>> YEAH.

LANGUAGE SPECIFICALLY AS YOU OUTLINED SUPPORTING DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA.

NOT SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE NOT HEARD FROM THE PRESIDENT, YET, SINCE THAT RAID TO TAKE MADURO AND HIS WIFE ON SATURDAY HERE TO THE UNITED STATES.

WE WILL SEE IF HE CHANGES AND FOCUSES ON THAT IN THE FUTURE.

I DO WANT TO END BY ASKING YOU ABOUT WHAT PUTIN ALSO HAS AS A TOP GOAL.

THAT IS THE DIVISION OF THE WEST.

AND THE WESTERN ALLIANCE, NATO SPECIFICALLY.

NOW WITH TRUMP SAYING AND HIS ADMINISTRATION SAYING THEIR NEXT TARGET, PERHAPS, COULD BE GREENLAND, DENMARK, THEIR LEADERSHIP SAYS, IF THAT IS THE CASE IT IS THE END OF NATO AS WE KNOW IT, HOW CONCERNING IS THAT FOR UKRAINE?

>> DENMARK IS ONE OF OUR CLOSEST FRIENDS AND SUPPORTERS.

WE ARE TREMENDOUSLY GRATEFUL TO THE PEOPLE OF DENMARK FOR HELPING UKRAINE.

THEY ARE HELPING A LOT.

THEY VALUE HIGHLY INTERNATIONAL LAW.

THEY RESPECT INTEGRITY OF UKRAINE.

THEY ARE A NATO MEMBER.

I BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD ALLOW PUTIN TO UNDERMINED TRANSATLANTIC SOLIDARITY.

WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DEMOCRACY IT IS ABOUT INTERNATIONAL LAW.

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD RESPECT DENMARK.

AND I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL ALSO RESPECT TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY OF DENMARK.

>> APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US TODAY, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> A LOT CAN CHANGE IN FIVE YEARS AND MANY PEOPLE WATCHING THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION ON THIS DAY IN 2021 MIGHT NOT PREDICTED DONALD TRUMP'S RE- ELECTION WHRVMENT HE RETURNED TO OFFICE LAST JANUARY TRUMP PARDONED GROUPS OF SUPPORTERS THAT STORMED THE CAPITOL AFTER HE LOST THE ELECTION.

PARDONING THE INSURRECTIONIST IS JUST ONE OF THE ACTIONS THAT CRITICS CALL AN ATTEMPT TO REDUCE JANUARY 6th TO AN AFTERTHOUGHT IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

THE PROFESSOR AND HOW FASCISM WORKS, JASON STANLEY SAYS THE COURTS PLAYED AN OUTSIDE ROLE IN THAT.

>> JASON STANLEY, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU ARE JOINING US ON JANUARY 6th, THE FIFTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION, YOU SERVED AS AN EXPERT ADVISORY TO THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE.

ABOUT A YEAR AFTER YOU WROTE THAT AMERICA WAS ENTERING QUOTE A LEGAL PHASE OF FASCISM, WARNING IT WAS FOLLOWED BY LEGAL LIKE REWRITING LAWS AND ELECTION RIGHTS.

HERE WE ARE FIVE YEARS LATER HAS YOUR OPINION CHANGED?

>> NO, AND I THINK THE SUPREME COURT RULING THAT HAS GIVEN THE PRESIDENT CART BLANCHE OVER OFFICIAL ACTS MAKES THE SITUATION WE FACE EVEN MORE DIRE AS WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST YEAR.

>> I WILL GET TO THAT IN JUST A SECOND, LET'S TALK ABOUT VENEZUELA, RIGHT NOW DOES THE END JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE REJOICING IN VENEZUELA AND OUTSIDE WHO EVEN THE NOBLE PRIZEWINNER, SHE CELEBRATED THIS OPERATION, SHE SAID IN A STATEMENT AS OF TODAY NICHOLAS MADURO FACES INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE FOR THE CRIMES AGAINST VEN VENS PEOPLE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

SAYING THE U.S.

IS UPHOLDING THE LAW.

IS THERE JUSTIFICATION IN THE EYES OF THE ADMINISTRATION SAYING THIS WAS A DESPICABLE HUMAN AND CAN HE IS SHOULD NOT BE IN POWER.

WE TRIED TO NEGOTIATE AN END TO IT BUT DID NOT WORK OUT?

>> WHAT WOULD YOU THINK OF ANOTHER COUNTRY KIDNAPPED PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING THAT HE HAS DONE ALL OF THESE ILLEGAL THINGS, HE IS NOT VERY POPULAR, HE IS DISPOTTIC?

OBVIOUSLY THAT WOULD BE A VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

OBVIOUSLY MADURO IS HORRIFIC, OBVIOUSLY VENEZUELA HAS FACED HIS RULE AND UNDER THE PRIOR RULE.

HOWEVER, NONE OF THAT IS AN EXCUSE JUST AS IT WOULD NOT BE, TRUMP'S MISRULE, TRUMP'S OPEN ILLEGALITY WOULD NOT BE AN EXCUSE TO TAKE OUT TRUMP.

SIMILARLY, TRUMP IS NOT SUGGESTING AT ALL THAT PUTIN SHOULD BE TAKEN OUT IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY.

AND PUTIN IS HAS DESTROYED HIS OWN COUNTRY, KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HIS OWN CITIZENS IN A POINTLESS WAR, KILLED THOUSANDS OF UKRAINIANS.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF SPOTS, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE HERE?

THE DIFFERENCE HERE IS THAT TRUMP CAN, THERE IS OIL IN VENEZUELA AND TRUMP CAN BENEFIT THOSE THAT SUPPORT HIM, TRUMP CAN BENEFIT COMPANIES.

LOOK, THIS CONNECTION BETWEEN INTERESTS AND AUTOCRATS WELL KNOWN, IF YOU SUPPORT THE OLEGARIC, THEY WILL SUPPORT YOU.

SO THE MOTIVATION HERE IT IS CLEAR.

NOTHING TO DO WITH DEMOCRACY OR THE BETTERMENT OF THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

ALSO, TRUMP USED THIS TO SAY HE WILL TARGET OTHER COUNTRIES, COLOMBIA, NOW, THERE IS NO SIGN THAT COLOMBIA IS COLLAPSING IN ANY WAY, NOW HE IS SAYING HE WILL TARGET GREENLAND AND NOT -- DENMARK IS NOT SUBJECTED GREENLAND TO ANY KIND OF AUTOCRATIC RULE.

>> YOU HAVE DOCUMENTED THERE IS A SHIFT TO THE RIGHT.

I WONDER WHAT THE ACTIONS OF THE UNITED STATES IN THE PAST WEEK, THE PAST YEAR WHAT THEY DO TO OTHER DICTATORS AROUND THE WORLD?

>> WELL, TRUMP IS CLEARLY SIGNALING TO PUTIN AND XI THEY CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT IN THEIR LOCAL AREAS.

HIS UKRAINE POLICY FAVORED PUTIN, NOW THESE ACTIONS ARE A SIGNAL TO PUTIN THERE IS NO INTERNATIONAL ORDER LEFT.

THAT EVERY AUTHORITARIAN LEADER AND DICTATOR CAN EXERT POWER OVER NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES OR THEY WISH TO PROFIT FROM.

TRUMP IS SIGNALING THAT THERE IS NOTHING THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD DO.

THE UNITED STATES IS TAKING THE LEAD ON JUST THESE KINDS OF ACTIONS.

>> THE RESPONSE FOR MOST PEOPLE WHEN THEY HEAR YOU AND AS YOU DRAW THESE PARALLELS AND THESE COMPARISONS THEY ARE GOING TO SAY LOOK IT IS NOT FAIR TO COMPARE THE UNITED STATES TO A PLACE LIKE HUNGARY OR WHEREVER?

WE HAVE THESE INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE CHECKS AND BALANCES ON THE WHITE HOUSE.

SO, LET'S FIRST, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE SUPREME COURTS.

WHAT LAYER OF CONFIDENCE THAT THE SUPREME COURT WILL BE A CHECK ON THE RISE OF POWER?

>> NONE.

THE SUPREME COURT SEEMS FULLY COMMITTED TO KEEPING THIS FAR RIGHT MACHINE IN POWER.

SO, EVEN WELL AFTER TRUMP WE CAN EXPECT THE SUPER MAJORITY, MANY WHO WERE A POINTED BY PRESIDENTS NOT A ELECTED BY THE POPULAR VOTE.

WE CAN EXPECT THE SUPER MAJORITY TO, TO, LEGISLATE IN SUCH A WAY THAT KEEPS THE MACHINE BEHIND TRUMP IN POWER.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT WITH THE USE OF THE SHADOW DOCKET.

THEY RULED AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THIS SUPREME COURT WAS A BLOCK ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THEY HALTED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S POLICIES ACROSS THE BOARD.

ONE EVER NOTABLE WOULD BE THE ATTEMPT TO FORGIVE STUDENT LOANS.

SO, THE DISPARITY BETWEEN THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO THE TRUMP REGIME AND THE RELATIONSHIP TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS THAT DISPARITY SHOWS THAT THIS IS SIMPLY PARTISAN, PARTISAN UNDER SELLS WHAT WE ARE SEEING.

IT IS A SUPREME COURT THAT WILL BLOCK ANYTHING, ANY DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO DO.

THEY BLOCKED SO MUCH OF WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS TRYING TO DO AND THEY ARE GOING TO USE THE SHADOW DOCKIT.

THEY WILL USE VARIOUS METHODS --DOCKET.

THEY WILL USE VARIOUS METHODS TO OVERRULE LOWER COURT'S DECISIONS THAT FIND PROBLEMS WITH THE TRUMP, WITH WHAT TRUMP, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING AND THEY ARE JUST GOING TO KEEP HAVING THIS ADMINISTRATION WHAT HANDING THIS ADMINISTRATION WHAT THEY WANT AND THEY WILL KEEP ON DOING THAT FOR WHOEVER IS IN POWER AS LONG AS THEY ARE PART OF THIS FAR RIGHT MACHINE.

SO, THAT IS A PROBLEM THAT IS GOING TO EXTENT WELL PASSED TRUMP.

>> ARE THERE NOT LOWER COURTS TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AGAIN AND AGAIN.

BUT THE SUPREME COURT CONTINUALLY OVERRULES THOSE LOWER COURTS.

SO, YOU KNOW, THAT IS OUR PROBLEM.

SOME FUTURE LEGISLATIVE ACTION IS GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH THIS.

BUT T IS JUST GOING TO BE AN IMMENSE STRUGGLE BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT STANDS FOR NOTHING OTHER THAN A SET OF FAR RIGHT PRINCIPALS AND THEY ARE GOING TO DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO STYMIE ANY LEGISLATIVE ACTION THAT WILL RUN COUNTER TO THIS FAR RIGHT AGENDA.

WE HAVE LOWER COURTS, JURIES ARE HELPING, SOME OF THE CLEAR WEAPONIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS RUN AGROUND IN SOME OF THESE CASES BECAUSE GRAND JURIES REFUSED TO INDICT.

WE HAVE SEEN THE CASES COLLAPSE.

SO, I THINK SEVERAL THINGS HERE ALONG THE GENERAL QUESTION OF INSTITUTIONS THAT YOU ARE FRAMING HERE.

I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION BELIEVES NO DEMOCRAT WILL BE EVER IN POWER AGAIN.

THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE SENSE OF THEIR ACTIONS THE ACTIONS OF MAGA-REPUBLICANS THEY BELIEVE DEMOCRATS WILL NEVER BE IN POWER AGAIN, HOWEVER, I THINK THAT IS INCORRECT.

I THINK THEY HAVE OVERPLAYED THEIR HAND.

I THINK THEY NO LONGER HAVE PUBLIC OPINION BEHIND THEM.

AND I THINK INSTITUTIONS, THEY DON'T HAVE --THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO TARGET SUCCESSFULLY ALL OF THE PEOPLE THEY TRIED TO >> THIS WAS PART OF THE REASON WHY WE SPOKE LAST TIME WHY YOU PERSONALLY CHOSEN TO MOVE TO TORONTO AND TO A UNIVERSITY THERE.

YOU FELT LIKE THE VIEWS THAT YOU EXPRESS COULD BE TARGETED.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN I AM OF TWO MINDS ABOUT THAT.

I THINK MY MOVE TO TORONTO WILL MAKE SENSE IF WHAT I CAN BUILD HERE ALONG WITH OTHERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO CAN HELP U.S.

DEMOCRACY.

WE CAN BRING PEOPLE WHO ARE FREE TO SPEAK AND STRATEGIZE ABOUT HOW WE CAN GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION AND TALK WITH OTHER PEOPLE FROM COUNTRIES LIKE UKRAINE, RUSSIA, BRAZIL, WHO HAVE FACED OR DO FACE SIMILAR SITUATIONS.

THAN THE MOVE WILL BE POSITIVE.

THINK THAT THIS REGIME HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN TARGETING.

I THINK THEY HAVE TOO MANY TARGETS NOW, RIGHT?

I THINK THEY ARE BRUTALLY TARGETING NON-CITIZENS.

SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES ARE NOW WONDERING IF THEY ARE A TARGET.

AND I THINK WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A NORMALIZATION NOW.

WHEN I GO TO THE UNITED STATES NOW I SEE A CRAZY SITUATION BEING NORMALIZED AND PEOPLE SAYING SEE, YOU COULD OF STAYED.

AND I THINK I COULD OF STAYED AT THIS POINT BUT THE SITUATION WHERE YOU CONSTANTLY YOU ARE LIKE WOW, LEGALLY THEY CAN TARGET THIS HUGE SWATH OF PEOPLE AND THAT COULD INCLUDE ME.

DEFINITELY, IT COULD, I AM ADMINISTRATION FASCISTS.

SO, THEY CAN NOT TARGET EVERYONE.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF INCOMPETENCE HERE.

SO, DOES IT MEAN YOU ARE SAFE?

NOT SAFE?

WHO KNOWS?

AND, I THINK PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES ARE LEARNING TO LIVE WITH IT.

YOU ARE SEEING NORMALIZATION.

IT IS REMARKABLE TO ME.

THERE IS A TERM EMERGING, SANE WASHING.

THAT IS WHAT THE MEDIA IS DOING.

IT IS RELATED BACK TO YOU.

DIFFERENT CONCEPT OF NORMALIZATION.

SANE WASHING IS LIKE REPRESENTING WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS DOING, THE EXTREME ACTIONS THEY ARE DOING.

TRYING TO FIND SOME RATIONAL FOR THEM.

THE NORMALIZATION SEEMS TO ME SOMETHING SORT OF IN THE AIR WHEN I GO TO THE UNITED STATES.

PEOPLE ARE MORE CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT THEY SAY.

PEOPLE ARE SORT OF ACCEPTING THE CRAZINESS EVER THE SITUATION.

AND THE SITUATION DOES SEEM CRAZY FROM THE OUTSIDE.

BUT, PERSONALLY I THINK, YOU KNOW, I, I --AS THINGS HAVE EMERGED, ONE YEAR LATER, YOU KNOW, ARE THEY TARGETING REGIME CRITICS AS HARSHLY AS THEY COULD HAVE?

NOT NOW AND THEIR INCOMPETENCE BLOCKS IT FROM DOING IT.

PA, TEL IS NOT CARR, NOT AS EFFECTIVE OF A PERSON, JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PEOPLE ARE NOT AS EFFECTIVE AT TARGETING THE BROAD SWATH OF AMERICANS THAT HAVE THEY NOW SAID THEY CAN TARGET.

SO, I GO BACK AND FORTH ABOUT MY DECISION.

MY DECISION HAD MULTIPLE ELEMENTS.

IT HAS BEEN VERY HARD.

IT HAS BEEN, IT IS REALLY HARD AT THE AGE OF 56 TO UPROOT YOURSELF FROM YOUR HOME TO SEPARATING YOURSELF FROM ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS TO START A NEW, IN A COMPLETELY NEW PLACE.

THAT HAS BEEN MUCH HARDER THAN I EXPECTED.

I MADE MY DECISION LESS ABOUT MYSELF MORE TO BE AN EXPRESSION, A POLITICAL STATEMENT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK IT WAS A POLITICAL STATEMENT ABOUT AN EFFECTIVE POLITICAL STATEMENT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

IT DID EXPRESS TO THE WORLD OKAY, WHEN PEOPLE LEAVE THAT IS, THAT IS CONCERNING.

PROBABLY MORE EFFECTIVE THAN AND OTHER POLITICAL STATEMENT I HAVE MADE.

>> YOU KNOW.

WE ALSO WITNESSED THE SORT OF DISMANTLING OF CERTAIN AGENCIES OF CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION BURR --AND TRUMP ADDED HIS NAME TO THE KENNEDY CENTER.

DO YOU SEE THIS MARRIAGE, COOPERATION BETWEEN STATE AND CORPORATE INTERESTS GETTING BETTER?

IT SEEMS LIKE --IF IT HAS ESSENTIALLY FOUR YEARS, AT LEAST TWO YEARS PLUS TWO MORE TO FLUSH ITSELF OUT THAT WE MIGHT BE AT A POINT OF NO RETURN.

>> I DON'T --WE ARE AT A PONENT OF NO RETURN.

THERE IS NO RETURN.

AND RIGHT, THE MERGING OF STATE AND CORPORATE INTERESTS IS, IT IS, OF COURSE, A SIGNATURE, A SIGN OF FASCISM.

WE ARE AT A POINT OF NO RETURN.

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO RETURN TO?

HOW DO YOU REIMPOSE?

ANY FUTURE PRESIDENT CAN BECOME, MAKE BILLIONS NOW, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY?

SUDDENLY THE RULES APPLY AGAIN?

YOU KNOW, THE FUTURE OF THE UNITED STATES IS VERY, VERY UNCLEAR.

THE REPUTATION OF THE UNITED STATES IS IN TATTERS, AMERICA IS VERY UNPOPULAR.

AMERICA WILL NEVER STAND FOR DEMOCRACY AGAIN, AMERICA STANDS FOR CRUELTY AND WHITE SUPREMACY RIGHT NOW IN THE WORLD.

AMERICA, INSIDE AMERICA THE BANKS, JAMIE DIAMOND IT WAS REPORTED MADE OVER $700 MILLION IN COMPENSATION, PEOPLE ARE GOBBLING UP THE PROFITS.

WE HAVE A CLASSICAL STRUCTURE OF THROWING, YOU KNOW, CULTURAL MEAT TO POOR MEN.

AND, THEN JUST THE CORPORATIONS AND THEY ARE GOBBLING UP THE MONEY.

HOW DO YOU RETURN FROM THIS LEVEL OF CORRUPTION?

THE QUESTION IS HOW WE BUILD SOMETHING NEW.

THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING NEW THAT IS BUILT.

SKETCHING THAT.

IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT STANDS UP TO THIS MERGING OF STATE AND CORPORATE INTERESTS.

BUT IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING NEW.

THERE IS NO RETURN.

THERE HAS TO BE SOME FUTURE POLITICIAN WILL HAVE TO SKETCH A NEW VISION FOR AMERICA.

AND REALLY SOME KIND OF NEW COUNTRY.

>> PROFESSOR JASON STANLEY FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, AS MANY UKRAINIANS CONTINUE TO LIVE THE STRAIN OF WAR, SOME ARE FINDING REPRIEVE IN BRAVING TOUGH CONDITIONS OF A DIFFERENT KIND.

THE ICE-COLD.

STRIPPING DOWN IN THE SNOW THESE RESIDENTS ARE MARKING ORTHODOX BY PLUNGING INTO A FROZEN LAKE.

IT IS A RITUAL SYMBOLIZING SPIRITUAL CLEANSING.

MANY CAME OUT FEELING REJUVENATED WITH ONE SAYING AFTER DIPPING IN ICY WATER I FEEL LESS PAIN AND YES IT GIVES HOPE.

I WANT THE WAR TO BE FINALLY WORDS SAID AS THE WAR IS APPROACHING ITS FOURTH YEAR NOW.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/ AMANPOUR, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT