> AND NOW A SECOND AMERICAN CIVIL WAR.

>> THE NATION FRACTURED IN TWO.

THAT IS KURT ANDERSEN'S NEW NOVEL "THE BREAKUP" SET IN 2045, THE STORY REVOLVES AROUND A COUPLE DEALING WITH THEIR PRONE MARRIAGE AS AMERICA UNDERGOES ITS OWN UNRAVELING.

THE AUTHOR JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS WHY HE WROTE IT.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

AND KURT ANDERSEN, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> HAPPY TO BE BACK.

>> SO YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "THE BREAKUP. "

IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT TWO BREAKUPS.

THIS WONDERFUL MARRIAGE, A COUPLE THAT IS VERY AMERICAN COUPLE, AND THE BREAKUP OF THE UNITED STATES.

LET'S START WITH THAT SECOND ONE.

YOU'VE BEEN TALKING FOR A WHILE.

YOU WROTE A NEW REPUBLIC PIECE ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU THINK THE U. S. MIGHT BREAK UP.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> SO WHAT I REALIZED IN DOING RESEARCH FOR THE NOVEL, THAT I HAD NEVER PUT TOGETHER IS THERE ARE ALL THESE WAYS IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES IN THE LAST DOZEN YEARS HAS FORMED THESE KIND OF ALTERNATIVE INTERSTATE COMPACTS AND INTERSTATE GOVERNING SYSTEMS PRACTICALLY IN CLIMATE, IN HEALTH.

WE HAVE SANCTUARY CITIES THAT KEPT, YOU KNOW, WOULDN'T USE THE LOCAL POLICE TO ARREST AND DEPORT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.

THEN WE HAD SECOND AMENDMENT SANCTUARY COUNTIES AND STATES WHICH I KNEW LITTLE ABOUT ACTUALLY UNTIL I STARTED DOING THE RESEARCH.

SO IT'S NOT AS THOUGH WE HAVE -- WE DON'T HAVE YET OH, TWO COUNTRIES, BUT WE HAVE SORT OF THE EMERGENT FORMATIONS OF ONE.

AND BETWEEN ALL THE THINGS THAT WE'RE ALL FAMILIAR WITH, OF THE DIGITAL BUBBLES IN WHICH WE LIVE.

WE HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE REALITIES TO A SHOCKING DEGREE TO ME.

AND POLARIZATION THAT HAS BEEN WHIPPED UP HIGHER THAN EVER, BOTH BY THE WORDS AND DEEDS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP LAST YEAR AND A HALF.

IT'S HARDER THAN EVER FOR ME TO IMAGINE HOW WE GET BACK TO NORMAL IN THE SENSE OF NOT -- WITHOUT SOME RADICAL TRANSFORMATION.

THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T HAVE TO BE TRIGGERED BY VIOLENCE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT REQUIRES SOME RADICAL DEVOLUTION OF POWER, YOU KNOW, OF THE KIND OF FEDERAL POWER THAT NOW EXISTS.

I DON'T SEE AN ESCAPE FROM IT.

I MEAN, I HOPE I'M WRONG, BUT MY STORY IN "THE BREAKUP" SEEMS MORE PLAUSIBLE TO ME TODAY THAN IT DID FOUR YEARS AGO.

>> YOU SAID SOMETHING A MOMENT AGO WHICH IS WHEN YOU DID THE RESEARCH FOR YOUR NOVEL.

I LOVE THE FACT THAT THE NOVEL ACTUALLY FEELS LIKE YOU'VE THOUGHT IT THROUGH.

YOU'VE RESEARCHED EVERYTHING FROM ROBOTICS TO HOW THE BREAKUP COULD WORK.

ONE OF THE CONFUSING THINGS, THOUGH, IS IT'S NOT LET'S SAY OUR LAST CIVIL WAR WAS NORTH VERSUS SOUTH.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF BUBBLES.

IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHETHER KNOXVILLE, TENNESSEE IS GOING TO BE PART OF ONE UNION OR ANOTHER.

HOW CAN YOU HAVE A BREAKUP THAT SORT OF SCATTERSHOT?

>> HOW IT WORKS IN "THE BREAKUP" THERE IS, AS ONE CHARACTER CALLS IT, A BLUE ARCHIPELAGO ACROSS THE RED SEA OF AMERICA FROM COAST- TO-COAST WHICH IS TO SAY ALL THESE METROPOLITAN AREAS ARE PART OF THE WASHINGTON-RUN BLUE UNITED STATES.

AND THAT WOULD BE TRICKY.

AND YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE AN INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM THAT IS BINATIONAL BETWEEN THIS NEW FREE AMERICAN REPUBLIC AND THE OLD UNITED STATES.

THE OLD UNITED STATES HAS 39 STATES AND THE NEW FREE AMERICAN REPUBLIC WHICH HAS 21.

SO IT'S COMPLICATED.

BUT FOR ME, YOU KNOW, JUST AS WHEN I WRITE HISTORICAL NOVELS, I NEED TO AN EXTREME DEGREE, WHAT WAS REALLY GOING ON THIS DAY THAT I WAS WRITING ABOUT.

I EVEN GO TO THE EXTENT, WAS IT A FULL MOON THAT DAY AND LOOK UP AN OLD ALMANAC TO SEE.

I NEED THE BASIS OF REALITY THEN TO MIX STUFF UP.

THAT'S WHAT I DID HERE.

>> THROUGHOUT TO THE BOOK ARE REFERENCES TO YATES' POEM, "THE SECOND COMING. "

YOU TALK ABOUT THE LACKING CONVICTION, THAT SORT OF THING.

A AND THE WHOLE NOTION IS THAT THE CENTER CANNOT HOLD.

THAT'S THE THEME OF THE POEM.

IS THAT THE PROBLEM YOU SEE IN THE UNITED STATES IS WE USED TO HAVE A CENTER AND NOW IT CANNOT HOLD?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS A CENTER.

IT DOESN'T HAVE --YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TWO PARTIES.

AS BOTH PARTIES BECOME MORE WHAT THEY ARE AND SPEAKING TO THEIR BASES, IT'S HARD TO HAVE A REPRESENTATION OF THAT.

AND HAVE PEOPLE HAPPY IN THE MIDDLE WITH THEIR RESPECTIVE PARTIES, YOU KNOW.

SO THERE IS THAT.

BUT I THINK THE SOCIAL MEDIA AND IT'S BASICALLY EVIL BUSINESS MODELS THAT ENCOURAGE RAGE AND HATRED, THEY DO, AND ANGER.

AND OUR LINEAR TELEVISION NOW GOING AWAY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IN THE CASE OF FOX NEWS, STILL PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN THESE IDEOLOGICAL ALTERNATIVE REALITY BUBBLES.

BUT THE CENTER NOT HOLDING IS PART OF IT.

>> WELL, IT'S NOT SIMPLY IN THE BOOK AND NOT SIMPLY IN AMERICA A LEFT AND RIGHT ISSUE, IS IT?

>> NO, IT ISN'T.

AND GETTING LESS SO IN INTERESTING WAYS TO ME.

I WAS, OF ALL THINGS, ON STEVE BENNETT'S SHOW OVER THE WEEKEND.

AND HE WAS --I WASN'T SEEKING COMMON GROUND WITH HIM, AND HELP WASN'T, BUT WE FOUND, OR IT EMERGED WITHOUT EVEN MENTIONING IT THAT WE'RE BOTH HIGHLY SKEPTICAL OF BIG TECH AND AI AND UNREGULATED SOCIAL MEDIA AND SO MANY THINGS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THIS BINARY THINKING, YOU'RE THIS TRIPE OR THAT TRIBE AND WE ONLY HAVE TWO TRIBES IS A KIND OF MISREPRESENTATION OF WHAT AMERICA IS.

>> WELL, YOU TALK ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA BEING ONE OF THE CAUSES AND RESENTMENT TO BIG TECH, WHICH SOMEHOW OR ANOTHER YOU, STEVE BANNON AND OTHERS FIND COMMON GROUND ABOUT.

IS THAT GOING TO BE THE GREAT DIVIDE TOO?

WE'RE SEEING THIS BACKLASH AGAINST AI, WHICH BY THE WAY ROBOTS AND AI ARE VERY MUCH IN YOUR BOOK.

THAT GOING TO HELP DIVIDE US AS WELL?

>> ACTUALLY, I THINK THE THING THAT CANNOT DIVIDE US.

I THINK THE OPPOSITION TO DATA CENTERS, AND THAT'S I BELIEVE KIND OF A INTERIM THING.

OH, THEY'RE TAKING ALL MY WATER AND RUINING MY LOCAL LANDSCAPE, SCREW THEM, I DON'T WANT THESE DATA CENTERS HERE.

THAT IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE WHATSOEVER.

>> THE PARALLEL IN YOUR BOOK IS HAVING THE BREAKUP OF THIS MARRIAGE, OF A COUPLE WHO HAS BEEN MARRIED, I CAN'T REMEMBER, 20, 25 YEARS.

YEAH, NATALIE AND ASHER.

FIRST OF ALL, TELL ME REAL QUICKLY ABOUT NATALIE AND THEN ABOUT ASHER, AND HOW THEY BECOME A METAPHOR FOR THE BREAKUP OF THE COUNTRY.

>> NATALIE IS A LITTLE YOUNGER THAN HIM, A GEN Zer.

SHE WAS BORN IN CUBA, MOVED TO --ENDED UP IN EAST TENNESSEE AS AN IMMIGRANT WITH HER PARENTS AND BROTHER.

THAT'S WHO SHE, WORKING CLASS, FINALLY MIDDLE CLASS.

WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG, SMART WITH THE UVA, WENT TO BROWN FOR GRADUATE SCHOOL.

THAT'S WHO SHE IS.

SHE IS A WRITER.

SHE IS A POET TODAY.

AND KIND OF CONSERVATIVE, CERTAINLY COMPARED TO MOST POETS AND ACADEMICS AND HER HUSBAND, FOR INSTANCE, WHO IS WELL TO DO, GREW UP IN LOS ANGELES, SHOW BUSINESS FAMILY, AND NOW RUNS THIS BIG NEUROSCIENCE INSTITUTE IN SAN FRANCISCO.

SO THAT'S WHO THEY ARE.

AND THEY'RE VERY DIFFERENT PEOPLE, VERY DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, SOME DIFFERENT VIEWS OF SAY, THE SOUTH AND CONSERVATIVES.

AND SHE GOT SOME MORE SLACK.

SHE GREW UP IN EAST TENNESSEE IN A TRAILER PARK, YOU KNOW.

SO THEY'RE DIFFERENT.

AND THEY REFLECT THE DIFFERENCES.

HE IS PERFECTLY FINE WITH AI, WHICH AS HIS PARTNER AT SAYS DOES HALF OUR WORK HERE NOW.

AND SHE IS EX---SHE'S NOT A SKEPTIC.

SHE THINKS IT'S BASICALLY TURNER NICING E E E ING -- TYRANNYING US ALL.

>> YOU HAVE THE BACK STORY OF DONALD TRUMP DIEING THERE THE 1930s AND YOUR OWN BACK STORIES OVER THE YEARS WHEN YOU WERE CREATING.

TELL ME ABOUT THE BACK STORY OF DONALD TRUMP AND HOW THAT REALLY PLAYS IN TO WHAT'S HAPPENED OR IS THAT JUST SORT OF A SIDESHOW IN WHAT'S HAPPENED IN AMERICA?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S --IT'S NOT A SIDESHOW IN THE LONG HISTORY OF AMERICA AT ALL.

I THINK HE IS UNQUESTIONABLY AN HISTORIC FIGURE.

YOU KNOW, NOT AS HE SAID LAST WEEK AS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT OF ALL TIME, BUT AN HISTORIC FIGURE, NO QUESTION.

SO IN MY STORY, "THE BREAKUP" STORY, I SET OUT NOT WANTING HIM TO BE THERE THAT MUCH.

IT'S 19 YEARS IN THE FUTURE.

I DON'T THINK WE'LL ALL STILL BE THINKING EVERY HOUR ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, GOD WISHES IT.

I COULDN'T LOSE HIM ALL TOGETHER.

SO AS I FINISHED THE DRAFT, I WENT THROUGH AND I SAID HE IS STILL HERE TOO MUCH.

SO I PLUCKED HIM OUT AND PLUCKED HIM OUT.

BUT HE'S THERE BECAUSE DESCRIBING WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN 2026 AND 2045 REQUIRED THE LATE 20s, RIGHT?

AND HIS -- THE TRUMPIAN HEIRS IN THE FUTURE.

AND I DECIDED THERE WOULD BE ONE SCENE OF DONALD TRUMP, WHICH IS HIS DEATH.

HIS DEATH, WHICH IS LIKE A TV SHOW BASICALLY, BECAUSE HE HAS MADE IT A TV SHOW, AS HE DOES EVERYTHING.

HE IS ON THE 20th ANNIVERSARY OF HIS FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT FOR HIS PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDACY.

HE IS COMING DOWN TO BE GREETED BY THE GATHERED THOUSANDS IN TRUMP TOWER DOWN THE GOLDEN ESCALATOR AND DIES BECAUSE HE IS 89 YEARS OLD.

AND THAT BECOMES A KIND --NOT EXACTLY A SPARK FOR THE UPRISING, BUT A PIECE OF THE YEAR BEFORE THE UPRISING.

AND, FOR ME, YOU KNOW, I DON'T WANT TO SAY I'M SHERLOCK AND HE IS MORIARTY AND WE'VE BEEN BATTLING FOR 40 YEARS, BUT, YOU KNOW, NOT ENTIRELY UNTRUE.

SO I --SINCE I WAS MAKING IT UP, I CAN MAKE UP HIS DEATH.

AND OF COURSE THE COMPLAINTS I GOT FROM MANY PEOPLE, STRANGERS WHO SAY WHY DID YOU DO THIS?

I DON'T WANT TO WAIT 19 YEARS.

I MORE CHARITABLY SAID NO, THIS IS IT.

YOU KNOW, HE IS A VERY OLD MAN AND HE DIES, AS WE ALL DO WHEN WE'RE OLD MEN.

>> YOU STARTED WRITING THIS BOOK DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

HOW DID IT EVOLVE WHEN TRUMP GETS A NOMINATION AGAIN, COMES BACK AGAIN?

>> NO, THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

IN FACT, I STARTED WRITING IT A MONTH BEFORE CHATGPT AND WHAT WE THEN CALLED GENERATIVE AI APPEARED.

SO I HAD TO INVENT MY NEAR FUTURE WORLD AND HOW THAT WOULD WORK.

AND I'M PRETTY HAPPY THAT WHAT I INVENTED WAS NOT --I DIDN'T HAVE TO DO IT OVER, START OVER AGAIN.

ONCE WE SAW THESE CHATBOTS AROUND.

TRUMP WAS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

YES, HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE WHEN I STARTED.

HE WASN'T ABOUT TO WALK INTO IT AGAIN AND WAS BEING PROSECUTED AND ALL THAT.

SO FOR THAT REASON AND OTHERS, BUT ALL KINDS OF REASONS, I DIDN'T WANT TO PREDICT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT YEAR, THE YEAR AFTER.

MY NEAR FUTURE COULDN'T BE THAT NEAR.

SO HE WAS IN THE BACKGROUND.

AND I WAS VAGUE ENOUGH ABOUT THE 20s AND 30s TO WRITE AROUND IT EFFECTIVELY.

OH, WHO KNOWS.

MY BASIC STORY FROM THE BEGINNING IS THE DEMOCRATS HAVE A BIG COMEBACK AND THE RIGHT HAS A VIOLENT SPASM OF BACKLASH AGAINST THAT.

THAT WASN'T CHANGED.

WHAT CHANGED AS THIS LAST YEAR AND A HALF OF TRUMP CAME IN WAS THE DARKNESS OF MY BACK STORY.

I DIDN'T CHANGE EVENTS REALLY, BUT WHAT MY CHARACTERS ACTUALLY ASHER AND NATALIE WERE GOING THROUGH IN THE '20s AND BICKERING OVER POLITICS.

AND WHAT NATALIE SAYS AT ONE POINT AND THIS WAS NEW IN A SUBSEQUENT DRAFT IS THAT WE BICKERED LESS WHEN TRUMP CAME IN BECAUSE FINALLY, HE WAS RIGHT, I WAS WRONG, TRUMP IS EVERY BIT AS BAD AS HE PREDICTED AND I WAS POOH- POOHING THAT AND SAID DEMOCRACY IS NOT UNDER THREAT.

SO I DID HAVE TO CHANGE THAT AND DARKEN, IF YOU WILL, THOSE YEARS.

SO, YOU KNOW, SELFISHLY, I WAS HAPPY THAT IT DIDN'T REQUIRE ME TO DO MASSIVE RE-ENGINEERING OF THIS COMPLICATED PLOT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME IS AT THE END OF SOME OF YOUR SECTIONS OR CHAPTERS, YOU HAD WHAT YOU CALL YOUR MANDATORY AI DISCLOSURE, WHICH IS FICTIONAL.

IT'S NOT EXACTLY HOW YOU USED IT.

WHY DO YOU PUT THAT IN, AND TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU FEEL YOU SHOULD BE DISCLOSING THE AI USE.

>> YOU'RE THE FIRST PERSON TO ASK ABOUT THAT THING, AND I'M GLAD YOU DO, WALTER.

IT'S NOT REAL BECAUSE IT SAYS THE SUCH AND SUCH APP IN 2035.

SO IT IS THE FUTURE.

I PUT IT IN FOR VARIOUS REASONS, BOTH PLOT-DRIVEN THAT I WON'T REVEAL, BECAUSE IT WOULD BE A SPOILER, BUT BITS AND PIECES WHICH AI HAS SIGNIFICANTLY COLLABORATED ON OR IN THE CASE OF LATER ON, SOME STUFF WHERE THERE IS AN AI TALKING AS AN AI.

IT'S FULL-ON AI GENERATED THING.

AND IT'S NOT TRUE, OF COURSE.

I WROTE IT.

I HAVE NOW NOT NOW NOR EVER USED AN AI TO GENERATE SE THAT I CLAIM TO BE MINE.

THAT I THOUGHT AS A SMALL WAY THAT REGULATION WILL BE AND IS REQUIRED OF THAT, I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE AN ABSOLUTE REVOLUTION OF HOW MUCH ANY GIVEN PIECE OF CONTENT WHERE I USE WITH QUOTES IS IMPORTANT TO DO.

THAT WON'T BE THE WHOLE DEAL, BUT DISCLOSURE OF THAT I THINK WILL BE AS IMPORTANT.

AND I CAN EASILY IMAGINE.

I'M HAPPY IF SUCH A THING AS I HAVE IN THIS NOVEL DOESN'T EXIST IN 2045.

>> EVER SINCE YOU AND I WORKED AT "TIME" MAGAZINE IN THE 1980s, YOU'VE BEEN THE PERSON WHO'S ALWAYS STOOD AT THE INTERSECTION OF CULTURE, POPULAR CULTURE, AND THEN POLITICS AND OUR SOCIETY.

AND YOU DID IT WITH STUDIO 360.

YOU DID IT WITH SPY MAGAZINE.

WHAT CAN POPULAR CULTURE AND THE FACT THAT WE DO SHARE SO MUCH WHEN IT COMES TO EVERYTHING FROM MUSIC TO ART TO LITERATURE, HOW CAN THAT HELP BRING US BACK TOGETHER, I GUESS, FROM THIS SCENARIO YOU'VE PAINTED?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING.

I MENTIONED THIS TO STEVE BANNON THE OTHER DAY, BECAUSE HE PLAYED BEFORE EVERY BREAK IN THE HOUR HE SPENT WITH ME A VIDEO OF DOLLY PARTON.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW GREAT SHE WAS.

I USED A SECOND OR THIRD OF THOSE TO SAY I AGREE.

I ADORE HER.

I'VE ADORED HER SINCE I WAS A KID.

AND SHE MAY BE THE LAST ICONIC AMERICAN POP CULTURAL FIGURE TO BRIDGE ALL THE GAPS, CULTURALLY, REGIONALLY, POLITICALLY, EVERYTHING, AND NOT BY BEING MILQUETOAST.

SHE TAKES POSITIONS ON GAY PEOPLE AND TRANS PEOPLE AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

SOME PEOPLE FROM EAST TENNESSEE WHERE SHE GREW UP WOULDN'T LIKE.

BUT SHE IS AN EMBODIMENT OF THAT.

AND THE FACT THAT SHE DIED, EVERYBODY HAS TO DIE, BUT AS I HAVE JUST PUBLISHED THIS BOOK ABOUT LOSING EXACTLY THAT KIND OF BONDING AGENT OR EMBODIMENT FOR AMERICA, YEAH, SHE IS NOT BLUE, SHE'S NOT RED, SHE IS EVERYBODY, IT WILL SEEM METAPHORICALLY APT.

I WILL RELATE TO WHAT IS HAPPENING OR IS HAPPENING TO THE UNITED STATES IN MY STORY, BUT THE THREE TELEVISION NETWORKS, FEWER CHANNELS OF POPULAR CULTURE, IT WAS EASIER TO EVERYBODY WATCH THE SAME STUFF, EVERYBODY LISTEN TO THE SAME STUFF.

THE BULKIZATION OF CULTURE WHICH IS NOT ALL TOGETHER A BAD THING HAS PROBABLY FED THIS SENSE THAT WE ALL LIVE IN OUR OWN LITTLE WORLDS, OUR OWN TRIBES, OUR OWN SUBGENRES OF CULTURE.

>> KURT ANDERSEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> A PLEASURE.